Hello again, I'm Orban Alney.

Once again, on this 4th of July, Americans will come together for baseball and hot dogs and fireworks.

But the Independence Day holiday always calls for something more.

It's time for reflection on the ideals of the nation and an assessment of whether those ideals are being realized.

This year, divisions are so deep and so emotional. They've provoked disagreement about the

rules of the game, and that's the focus of this podcast. Trump administration officials

have been accosted in public over dividing immigrant families.

When Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters supported such actions, she faced serious threats

of death.

On CNN, David Gurgan, who's advised presidents of both parties, issued a call for civility

in public debate.

I think both sides have now reached the point where they're so frustrated and so fed up and so impatient for change, that this could lead almost anywhere.

It is extraordinarily divisive. I cannot remember a time.

The anti-war movement in Vietnam, the civil rights movement in the 60s and early 70s, both of those were much more

civil in tone.

So is civility in public debate a cardinal rule of American democracy?

Ebram Kendi is Professor of History at International Relations at American University.

He's founding director of that institution's anti-racist research and policy

center, and he's author of Stamped from the Beginning, the definitive history of racist ideas

in America. Professor, great to have you with us.

It's a pleasure to be on the show.

What do you say to what we hear about the call for civility in debate, particularly the comparison we just heard

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