My guest is Rafael Bear.

Rafael Bear is a political journalist and broadcaster, and he writes a political column for the Guardian newspaper.

And he's the author of a new book, Politics, a Survivor's Guide, How to Stay Engaged,

Without Getting Enraged. Welcome to the podcast, Raphael.

Thanks very much for having me.

Right. Let's get cracking.

There's so much to cover in your book, which is fascinating and well worth, not just reading, but also buying.

But I thought we'd try and focus a bit, if we can, maybe slightly predictably, on the

Europe question and UK's long-term views on how they could now cooperate with the European Union after the

referendum result of now seven years ago. Your book is full of fascinating insights about why

things went a certain way all of these years ago. We obviously have to be all of us constructive

and positive. But do you think there are any lessons to be drawn from how the, in effect, the Remain

camp handled the referendum campaign and the all the post result activity in terms of rejoin

and second second vote, all that kind of stuff?

How optimistic are you that the Remain

Camp, which is getting bigger by the day through demographics, never mind anything else,

can actually, in a sense, turn things around in terms of the British approach to Europe?

I think the key lesson there, and the one that it took me probably a little bit too long to grasp, although

it was in the back of my mind all the way through that very intense February period between

the referendum 2016 and the actual enactment to Brexit 2019, 2020, was that the argument shifted

away from Britain's membership of the European Union

towards something more fundamental about the way British politics was responding to the referendum,

...