My guest is Stefan Derink.

Stefan Derrick was a senior advisor to Michel Barnier, the chief Brexit negotiator for the European Union.

He now represents the European Commission in Belgium.

He's also the author of a new book Inside the Deal, How the EU Got Brexit Done.

Welcome to the podcast, Stefan.

Thank you, Paul.

Now, I'm very interested personally in the future relationship between the

EU and the UK, especially after the Windsor Framework Agreement of a few weeks ago. But I think your book

is an excellent starting point for trying to work out not just how things went when the UK finally

submitted his Article 50 notice to the European Union about how things could proceed.

So I think let's use your book as a launching pad for future understanding of how the two sides may work better together going forward.

I thought I would start, if I may, by what you call the four Brexit fallacies. You say in the UK side,

there was a confrontational approach with Brussels. Secondly, the EU conspired with the

Remainers in the UK. Thirdly, Michel Barnier was a dogmatic theologian of the EU rulebook, and finally that the EU always

budges at the last minute. So quite a lot of misunderstandings there on the UK side. How long did

these what you call fallacies take before they came onto your own radar screen and that of

Michel Barnier? Well, they emerged during the negotiations.

I mean, the fact that Michel Barnier or the EU as a whole was accused of being

dogmatic theologians and saying, okay, the single market means for freedoms.

If you don't want free movement of people, you can't have free movement of goods and services.

That emerged throughout the negotiations, 1718,

with the Theresa May plan to stay in the single market

...