This is an I-Heart podcast.

This is Solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg.

Back in 2019, my co-host, Applebaum interviewed a Swiss history student, then 28-year-old Flavia Kleiner.

My solvable is to build a political home for people who want to defend our liberal order against writing populists,

as well in Switzerland, as well as in other countries.

Populists tend to frame politics as a battle

between the virtuous ordinary masses and the corrupt elite.

They demand that the will of the people should always win.

And that sounds pretty reasonable,

but in reality, many populist movements have actually

targeted the poor, immigrants, women, religious minorities, and others to create an us-against-themic.

Those divisions can make it harder to unify around local, national, and global goals,

like fighting poverty and disease,

and banding together to face our climate crisis. Does this all feel uncomfortably familiar and

close to home? I wish I could say that populism had decreased around the world since our

interview with climate first aired last year, but it's the opposite.

Listening again, I was struck by just how encouraging it is to hear about Kleiner's winning strategies. Flavia Kleiner is the co-founder of Operation Libro. And just last month, her organization

helped defeat yet another populist xenophobic referendum.

Kleiner's insights and optimism feel especially meaningful as we approach our own divisive national elections here in the United States.

Here's her conversation with my co-host, Anne Apple.

You, a few years ago, identified what you felt to be a very deep problem in your country.

Can you describe what it is and how did you first recognize it?

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