We're missing out, particularly in the knowledge economy, we're missing out in so much potential.

And then you layer on top of that that one study says a manager only understands no more than

40% of what his or her people do. So that manager can't even make a good decision because they

don't really understand how the job gets done. We're actually putting organizations in a place where

decisions become really, really slow for the wrong reason.

Welcome to Franklin Covey's On Leadership. I'm your host, Jennifer Coliseimo. On Leadership

brings practical insight through conversations with

senior leaders and seasoned practitioners, focused on the human side of strategy and transformation.

Today's guest has seen firsthand what organizational transformation truly requires at a scale most of us can't imagine.

Phil LeBron has spent his career in the space of technology and human change,

modernizing operations across 38,000 McDonald's restaurants in 120 countries,

then advising Fortune 500 executives at Amazon Web Services

on what it actually takes to move large organizations forward. His new book, The Octopus

Organization, published by Harvard Business Review Press, makes the case for a fundamentally different leadership

model, one built for complexity, not control. Phil, thank you for joining us on leadership.

Thank you for having me, Jen. I'm wanting to dive right in and start with the fact that at Franklin Covey, all of our clients,

when they talk about capabilities, their people need, they talk about innovation, agility,

growth mindset, having an owner's mentality. And put that in one box. And recently on LinkedIn, you wrote,

the silent killer of good organizations isn't bad people. It's good people trapped in a quagmire

of bad rules and oversight. So while of course there's probably some capability in there,

you've got a systemic broad thesis.

Would you overview that for us and give us a broad view of the octopus organization, a guide to thriving

...