Pegasus and Compliance in the Age of Cyber Intelligence
Bribe, Swindle or Steal
Alexandra Addison-Wrage of TRACE International
4.9 • 582 Ratings
🗓️ 3 January 2024
⏱️ 24 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Chaim Gelfand, Vice President, Compliance, at NSO Group joins the podcast to talk about managing compliance for a product that has, baked into its design, complex privacy, corruption and human rights implications. Because of the controversial nature of spyware, we will hear from journalist Khadija Ismayilova next week about the allegation that spyware was installed on her cell phone and her concerns about abuse of the technology.
Podcast originally aired: March 8, 2023
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Welcome back to the podcast, Brib, Swindle, or Steel. I'm Alexandra Rogge. We're discussing a controversial topic today, how to ensure effective compliance around inherently risky weapons or security systems. But in this case, the item is cyber intelligence |
| 0:22.2 | rather than automatic weapons, for example, or landmines. My guest today is Haim Gelfand. I've |
| 0:28.5 | known Haim for many years from his role in-house at previous companies. Heim is currently |
| 0:33.5 | the Vice President of Compliance at NSO Group. |
| 0:40.0 | NSO is, of course, the company behind Pegasus. |
| 0:45.6 | Pegasus is spyware that can be covertly installed on cell phones, that is, without the awareness of the phone's owner. |
| 0:47.5 | It's widely used by law enforcement operating subject to subpoenas, but for obvious reasons |
| 0:52.6 | is also open to abuse by low rule of law countries. |
| 0:56.2 | In recording this podcast, I wanted to address the compliance issues surrounding this technology |
| 1:00.6 | rather than the human rights issues. Upon listening to it, though, it became clear that simply |
| 1:06.0 | chatting through the compliance issues isn't sufficient. These can't be addressed in isolation. We need to |
| 1:12.6 | hear from both sides on the larger issues. As such, I reached out to Khadija Ismailova, an investigative |
| 1:18.8 | journalist who's been on this podcast previously. It's alleged that Khadija's phone had Pegasus |
| 1:24.7 | installed on it, which would mean that the government could see all of her |
| 1:28.3 | communications in real time. Kedija, in true journalistic spirit, agreed that this podcast |
| 1:34.0 | should be posted, but also agreed to record a separate podcast about her experience and |
| 1:39.6 | setting forth her concerns about this technology. I'm asking for your patience as we explore this issue over |
| 1:45.9 | two episodes, the first of which is quite narrow in its focus and of specific interest to the |
| 1:51.6 | compliance community, and the second of which will look at the broader policy issues. |
| 1:57.5 | Hiam, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. |
| 2:07.4 | Cyber intelligence is, it seems to me, a compliance quagmire, privacy issues, corruption issues, export issues, and transparency in what is an inherently opaque market. |
| 2:15.0 | So let me start with the first big question. Should there be a product that circumvance |
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