Do you want to see a kiss, like a kiss biophoek? I'm on the fence about it. I would rather it never happen than happen badly. I don't want to talk much about your musical partner, you know, he says enough on his own. But when you start getting other things, you know, like I called it like Gene with the ponytail in the movies, Gene. How would you feel about that? Did you see him as being like, remember when Keith Richards was very critical of Mick Jagger? Yeah. Like, you're in the Rolling Stones. Like, what the hell are you doing? Did you have a similar reaction? Very much. Very much. I felt betrayed. So let's start here. I love this word kerfuffle, you know? You know, there's a recent kerfuffle about you guys playing again. Yes. So I just want you to walk me through that a little bit. The context being you're gonna do a thing in Vegas and you guys gonna play it unmasked, they believe it was the word you use. Every year we did kiss cruises. And fans level. I mean, just I know 10 people have been on the Kiss Cruises, they love them. Yeah, and the most fun. The most fun. And so much fun for me and for us. Honestly, when we first were toying with the idea, I was like, who's going to go on to kiss cruise? It turned out many. And we did what they wanted. We listened and created something special. That's what we're doing in Vegas. In terms of why? Why not? You know? I don't care about the why. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. To me, the why is when people get into that stuff in our business, they're looking at the wrong end of the telescope. Well, also, it's a reflection of a mindset that I'm not a part of, you know, many people live going why instead of why not? And be that, that's the opening of the door. We're celebrating 50 years. There's always a reason to celebrate, it's 50 years Since the the Kiss Army and and it's also a way to say connected to our fans we The people who ask us why we're doing it or the people who wish we wouldn't do it in the same way that there are people who say, you know, why did you continue on as a band? Well, you know, so it sounds like a great fun time to keep going and to continue a tradition. It's basically a kiss cruise in Vegas in a hotel. Sure. I'm not a doubting person by nature because I just think cynicism is just, it's overplayed in American culture. So the question is not asked with cynicism. How is system comes from bitterness? Agre great. So I'm just curious of your mindset. It was it's similar to when you guys continued after the farewell tours. It's just like, it's our book to author. And if we want to keep adding chapters, it's all good. Totally. We said that we're done touring. We're done in those personas that we shouldn't pick up instruments together. Says, who? We're not, and if we did, we're allowed to, but we're not going against what we said. Okay. And, you know, I'm not going to be on stage. I see videos and go from the last tour and go, boy, it was that great. But we're not doing that. We're celebrating where we are today and our past with the fans who we love and they love us. Yeah, I mean, in many ways, you're, it's a blive way to put it, but your business model is very much its own thing. You guys have always kind of created your own ecosystem. Always. And it's worked very well for you. Other people it wouldn't work well for. I don't think it would work well for us. I don't—we're just wired differently. Yeah, we've always done things the way we thought they should be done. And certainly in the beginning we had less control over making those kinds of decisions, but Bill or Quine, our first manager, he never managed anybody in his life, but it felt right. And there are other cases of that happening over the years. This might be an unfair question question to ask you, because, you know, Gene's always sort of, and Gene, when he was here, and he sat in that exact same chair, I challenged him and said, you know, in a way, you're, you're always talking about money as kind of a weird cover for how you really feel. I'm not asking you to speak for Gene. But when people have tried to always label kiss as being about money, I always thought this is their sort of missed the point. And I even challenge Jean on that. So what was always your mindset on that? It's never been about the money. However, if there is money to be made, it should go to us. But... People overlook the fact how much money you guys blew to. I mean, you guys blew it. I mean, no one's ever blown money like you guys. I mean, the production, if people really knew what that stuff cost, you know? We learned through mistakes. And nobody has to take up a collection for us. Our rent is well paid. But, you know, the idea of being like money hungry or anything like, it's not the case. I've always done this and we've always done this, ultimately, truly because of the joy it gives us. I was so fortunate I grew up in an era that took us into the next era but I grew up seeing Jimmy Hendrix play for a couple thousand people, Led Zeelin the who with buddy guy opening in 69 Humble pie Derek and the dominoes all these bands that's that's what I love and that's what I wanted to be I Never started doing this with the intention. I'm gonna be be a millionaire. Back then, millionaire was like, you know, the monopoly man, you know, that's incredible. But it was never about that. It was about, I want to be that guy. I want to be up there. I want to be Steve Marriott. I want to be, I want to preach. Who wouldn't want to be Steve Marriott?

I want to be up there preaching rock and roll, you know, with everything like that. When I interviewed Sharon Osborne, I didn't know that she'd gone to school with Steve Marriott. So she knew him as a kid, when she was a kid. And we talked about that voice that came out of that body. boy. I mean, a less Paul on him looked like a bird land. I mean, it was, you know, but gosh, you know, you had to, you had to experience that lot. Yeah. But that's, that's what it was about for me. Yes, there's money generated. And I wanted. But it, that was but that was secondary but it was important. If there is going to be money it belongs here. I guess what I'm after and I'm not doing a good job of it is fans tend to do this weird thing. They try to make these kind of arguments. It's like it's either about integrity or money, you know, and my argument is why can't it be about both? Isn't success where the artist gets rewarded for their effort and they maintain their integrity in essence, they're executing their vision? Isn't that the ultimate win? Totally. Because if you don't generate resources in the music business, you won't have any power. Because the people actually control the world will put you in positions of which you don't have any choice of integrity. Does that translate the way I'm saying? Yes. And money, what money gives you, is the ability to stop worrying about money. And it gives you freedom. What was the Duke Ellington thing? I know how to make a man a millionaire give him a dollar and he wants ten and once he gets ten he wants a hundred. It's it's you know money. Money is a is a is a great thing. But it gives you the opportunity. I think integrity is following your compass. It doesn't necessarily mean doing the right thing always. God knows we've done some, you know, some we've fallen on our asses a few times, but money gives you the ability to survive that and to continue. So walk me through the, I'm not interested in the financial aspect of the pop house deal, but I'm interested in, in, you know, Jean of course paints this rapsotic picture, what you're going to do. I like to get the more practical vision of what you have. Of course, when you did the last show at Madison Square Gardens, there was the characters were flashed up and there was a lot of chatter about that. But what's your aspirational hope for let's call it kiss in your absence? Firstly, what was at Madison Square Garden? was something where there was some, some dissension or contention, even among us, because it didn't represent what we were going to do to create what we are doing takes years. And that was rather than taking it literally, it was just the idea that we will continue on and pardon me in another form.

What do I hope that there's a... That the core of this immersive experience is an accurate representation of the band at its best. Because nobody can be us better than us. So if there is a way and there is to create something life-like and beyond realistic, something that you buy as real and then surround it with something unwirly. That takes us into another realm which most bands can never do. The idea was never to recreate a concert where you go, doesn't that look like a real amp? You know, it's to create something that parallels what kiss is, which is bigger than life and takes the imagination on a journey. So it makes sense to me that there would be a posthumous life for the band, is this. It's like, I always say, when I was a kid and we would watch the wonderful world of Disney and color on Sunday night at grandma's house, we didn't know that Disney was dead. We had no idea. We thought he was a living guy

because he was presented as this character who ran this wonderful world called Disney and Disney Land.

Good point. Yeah, I think that I was part of creating kiss, but I can also step away from it and it lives on as that makes, but I mean, as a as a fellow artist, that makes total sense to me. That basically, the thing that part me to, no, no, you, it's, it's to you. I want to hear from you. No, but, but doesn't that make sense? Because whether or not your kiss and you can live on visually as an artist creating music, your music lives on. Well, that's the real important thing. Sure. So, I'm sure that's at the heart of your desire is like that people are going to hear these great songs. And it's connected to these wonderful personas that enhanced the experience.

We see it now with Star Wars and Star Trek. There's these other lives that they didn't anticipate when they first created. Totally. You can only create within the capacity and the technology.

And as that broadens, yeah, other things become possible. Um, this is just a curiosity question. I'm sure you, you know, the queen movie went out into be the most successful band biop music biopic, I think, in the history. I'm sure people have proposed it to you. Do you want to see a kiss biopip? I'm on the fence about it. I would rather it never happen than happen badly. No. We don't need Kiss Meets the Phantom too. But yeah, it would be, I would love to see it. It would almost be interesting as like a Netflix mini series or something, if they were willing to put up the money and do it right. Yeah, because most people are going to gravitate towards the OG period because it's obvious. It has all the typical movie arcs, this and right? All this typical stuff that they wanted to movie. But I find your middle period just as fascinating. I have to say that the truth is far more interesting than anything that somebody could write. What we've gone through, where Jean and I in particular started because we started before Kiss. Wicked Lester. And still somewhat haunted by the she, the original she version with the flutes. Yeah, that came from a time where we were just so lucky to be it, would just recording at night right wasn't that the thing you would go in at night we would go in we weren't going in on an electric light which was you know that's like Olympus Mount Olympus yeah Jimmy Hunter yeah with Eddie Kramer yes and we would go in we could l lester was with Ron Johnson, this other producer, and we would record on spec time, which meant basically that if there was an artist who was booked time from noon until eight o'clock at night, we would show up at seven. They might go on till 12 or one o'clock in the morning and we'd sit around for four or five hours and then go in and use that empty time. And during that time, truly, if there was a song that came out with a banjo, we put a banjo on the song. I never heard the word euphonium. We had a euphonium on one of the songs. It was, what's hard today? Oh, put a guitar on it. No one sings like you, but I know you have your singing idols. We talked about Steve Mariette, who are some of the other singers that you thought? I wish I could sing like them. Well, you only had to see Robert Plant in 1969 to bear witness to something where you... Sunfare, isn't it? Yeah, it was like you gobsmack, but you're also... You're just trying to figure out how in the world is he doing that? Just this... And exuding this sexuality, but his voice was insane over the years, obviously, like everybody. The voice either deteriorates or changes, but at that pinnacle, it was... Are those going to first four years, five years, his voice is almost without peer? Yeah. And live. I mean, not just live in live in the studio. Oh, yeah. You hear some of the outtakes and it's the same, it's not like he fixed it in the mix. No, what he was doing effortlessly was mind-boggling to me because at that point my voice didn't have a lot of range. You know, I couldn't figure out how he was opening that door in the back to get to that voice. How did you figure out that upper voice in yours because it's very unique? It

Just clicked

During the 80s and the 80s suffered for it in some ways because all of a sudden I

Found this way, you know of getting into a head head voice a combination. They've had some impossible notes on those sounds

I mean ease, you know, I mean, just crazy, crazy notes and not necessarily needed on those songs, but it was like, hey, I can do it. I can do it some of that. Yeah. So, yeah, I listened to some of that now and I'm incredulous at those notes, but yeah, listening to... It's like forever and there's like, I can hear your voice. And it was effortless. Really? Oh, totally. I could do that for hours. I mean, we would go in the studio and I would sing something to just... Let's do that again. Let's do that again for hours Interesting story it was interesting time for me. I had known Ron Nevesin for years the producer and We finally went in to work with him on an album that some people like and some people don't like But I was thrilled to go in with him because Ron had done Zeppelin. He had done heart. He had done the babies. He had done a lot of work with really good singers, bad company. And I'm in there. First, I play them the demos. He said, you made my work easy because we're just gonna basically copy the demos

But when I was singing and I'm thinking he's gonna take me to some place that never been and I said I I sang one of the songs that and I said let's do it again and he goes why and I said well because I can do it better and he goes Who's gonna know And I was was like, it was kind of like, wah, wah, was like really? But yeah, I mean, Robert Plant was very, very important as Steve Mariett as a performer and as a conduit, as a that's that was not a holder. Right. Never thought about that with you. That makes sense. Yeah, just those those foghorn voices. Yeah. And the way I wasn't going to be out there, although we did it with kiss, so I got a chance to do it, you know, with just a microphone and swinging the mic, but I was going to be I guess more Steve Married I played a guitar, so I'm going to be the guy talking But yeah, I wanted I wanted to preach I wanted to I wanted to talk to the people in the very back room Yeah, well, there's those great YouTube clips where it's just you talking. Yeah. Possessed. Possessed. How do you write yourself as a songwriter? Are you comfortable as a songwriter? Do you feel strong as a songwriter? I can't think of where you've really talked about it much maybe I didn't see it. I was thinking last night and I've thought this before that over time over years I became a technically better songwriter but I will never write something as good as come on and love me or love gun songs that

Didn't know what you can and can't do yeah

songs that came from you and weren't labored over yeah, she's a dancer or a romantic

I'm a Capricorn and she's a cancer. I saw a picture in a music magazine when she you know

I couldn't but you were living it too. That's it different mindset too. Well, even before I was living it, I was fantasizing living it. I ultimately wound up living it. Yeah. I mean, a song like Room Service is me just going, we, you know, this is unbelievable. You know, the unpopular kid is in the candy store, you know. But so before we had that kind of attention, sure strutter, I saw those girls, those women on the street. They wanted nothing to do with me. They were with the dolls or whoever, you know, was playing at the Mercia Arts Center or going to Max's. So, those kind of songs came from, I wanted to be there. I wound up there and those were joyous songs, songs of celebrating the barterie, but also celebrating the baruring and being... Well, if you write the line, put your hand in my pocket, grab one fair rocket. Yeah. Now, I heard that when I was about 10 and I didn't know what it meant, but I knew it wasn't good. Yeah. Well, you know, good guy in this molly, sure like the ball, you know, it's... Amazing amazing you got away with that. Totally, totally. But hey I peaches in herb there's one perfect fit and this one is it and that's like a love song but well what are you singing about you know. So were there people that you look to, to teach you how to song right? Because like most rock people don't go to school to learn how to write songs. They listen to somebody or yeah. So who were your song writing kind of goobers? Basically, what I was doing was hearing songs that I liked and trying to write my version. Scott MUNI, the disc jockey in New York on any W, he had a program once we called the British Power Hour. And he would play like the top 10 in England. I was a huge anglo file. That was really the music that I loved. God loved Jefferson, Airplane and all that kind of stuff. I had no time for that. To me, what was going on on the other side of the pond was so interesting. So for example, I heard a song called Fire by the move move. I don't know that one. It was big head over there and well I couldn't find that song or afford that song. I wrote Firehouse. And it's basically the same. Get the Fire Brig, you know. Yeah. And get the firehouse. Yeah. So I had a tendency to pattern songs, on songs that I liked. And that's a good thing. There's a lot of kind of, 50s changes in your, in your, in your quarter work, but it doesn't sound 50s the way you do it. You put your own spin on it, but to me quarterly there's a lot of kind of... Well, there was also... I loved... I mean, I love great rhythm guitar playing, whether it's Richie Havens or Pete Townsend. Richie Havens is an incredible rhythm player. It's insane. You were trying to play the way he played with the one chord in the thumb. Well, that thumb. Yeah, that thumb. You know, he tuned the guitar just to one chord. Yeah. So you basically played one finger. Yeah. But once, you know, he would also... Yeah, he'd add a little bit of... Yeah. I mean, when Evan, my oldest was playing guitar, I said, listen to Richie Havens because this is great, but this is where you play guitar. Some of those Richie Havens albums are really, really well produced. Really cool sounds. Beautiful. So as far as what we were talking about. Songwriters. You get into Carole King, Jerry Goffin, and you get into Carole King Jerry Goffin you get into Barry Manon Cynthia will Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich. Yeah, I was I was listening. I'm sure you've done that where you hear say who wrote the song and Whether it was walking in the rain by the run runnets and it's man and wheel or while I mean what a song I mean still goosebumps to this day this like you know well Barry man I knew Barry from from electric lady forward and Barry is I mean R&B on Broadway I didn't know know that. Oh yeah. So, um, yeah, those people, they wrote songs, man, because they understood the formula. I mean, you know, you've lost that love and feeling. That's barry man. It's Cynthia. Yeah. Yeah. There is that there is that thing that oftentimes gets lost in translation with rock and roll because the radio playlists up to the early to mid-70s were very regional. So people grew up in the Northeast, got a very different physical education than people growing up. Yes, rock, rap in Chicago. And like if you listen to Tommy James, you can really hear that do-wap influence, but then that kind of psychedelia. But it's a very East Coast. And like you said,

the West Coast, the Jefferson airplane version, Buffalo Springfield, it's a very different kind of psychedelia. Less influenced by Dewop and more influenced by us on people's spoken weed or something. Yeah, very different. More based, I think, probably on acoustic on the folk music. Yeah, Yeah, exactly more folk.

Yeah, very much so that different areas had, you know, the... You know, it's just a crude, crude week because harmonies are kind of a hidden thing in your music. I'm not saying it's hidden, but I'm saying is there's a very unique kiss vocal harmony style. Was there somebody you guys patterned yourself after? I've always loved harmonies. And one of the great things in my family was when I was growing up, all four of us, my parents, my sister and I, well, I had really good voices. And we would sing. Oh, so you just grew up with that? Just grew up. I was singing innately and four part, we say in great harmony. So that was always something special. I mean, the birds, you know, their harmonies were fantastic. It's unfair when you hear those voices. Yeah. I mean, and I cross B. Jean Clark. Jean Clark, you know, there's an unsung here. Oh, I'm the little, you know, one of my favorites all time.

Me too, you know. Um, could you ever listen to this stuff he did after he left the British, the early country rock out a little, you know, a little, a little out there, a little out there, but, you know, but him with Dillard and Clark, and there's some interesting stuff. Yeah, yeah. So because your history in music is so often explored, I just want to kind of tangentially touch on it because there's almost no way to express it, but I thought it would be interesting to kind of do it this way. So if we break your, your life into these, these four areas that I've somehow made at my own version, then you have four areas of music, um, I thought, okay, with the original band, take me to the moment in your life when you're sending on stage somewhere and you think, wow, this is really going to work. Is there like a specific show or a specific... Yeah, I think it was Dayton, Ohio. I love it. Yeah, and we were playing... we could do 14 shows in a row, whatever. We wanted these package tours, whereas you and Rush, and you know, was one of those. Rush did their first tour opening for us. Tom Petty and the heartbreakers were. But I'm saying, yeah, those were the times where there was always these shifting bills. Yeah, but we were, I would always say to our road manager before the show when we were getting ready, how are we doing and what that meant was how our ticket sales and I remember how we doing sold out. Oh, cool. And then next night, how are we doing sold out and and it's like and then I'm going do I sense a pattern here? Yeah. And I remember before we went on I was all made up and ready and we had a curtain like a kabuki and I went out and looked down I was like like, oh my god, this place is packed.

And that's when I thought, wow, this is happening.

You know, I always thought of it analogous to,

you know, you're on the roller coaster

...