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Hey listener, a quick favor.

We are conducting an audience survey and we'd be really grateful if you could take just a few minutes to respond.

Please visit survey.

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This is Design Matters with Debbie Millman from Design Observer.

Com. matters with Debbie Millman from Design Observer.com.

On this podcast, Debbie Millman talks with designer Paul Serre about the power of saying no to clients

and about a meeting with Steely Dan that went off the rails.

Stood up and said, guys I quit I don't work this way and then right then

Vagan jumped up and just put his finger in my face.

It's like, fuck you.

There's some unbleached language in this interview that may not be appropriate for all listeners.

Here's Debbie.

I'd like to thank two of the patrons that help make design matters possible.

Is your team designing an app from scratch, rethinking the look and feel of your brand,

maybe taking on something massive like

...