Patrick Deneen On Ending The Liberal Order

The Dishcast with Andrew Sullivan

Andrew Sullivan

Politics, News, Religion & Spirituality

4.6 • 836 Ratings

🗓️ 9 June 2023

⏱️ 45 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com

Deneen is a writer and academic. Based at the University of Notre Dame, he is Professor of Political Science and holds the David Potenziani Memorial College Chair of Constitutional Studies. His books include The Odyssey of Political Theory and Why Liberalism Failed, and his new one is Regime Change: Toward a Postliberal Future.

For two clips of our convo — on his book using Marxist analysis in defense of conservatism, and whether the government should give you money to stay home with kids — pop over to our YouTube page. Other topics: Patrick’s Irish-Catholic upbringing in the oldest town in CT — “an idyllic New England town” that became a “shell of itself”; his unexpected route to academia; working-class Rutgers vs elite Princeton; how society needs meritocracy — but it’s irrelevant when it comes to morality; Disraeli and noblesse oblige in the UK; migration and Brexit; “woke capitalism’s patina of social commitment”; the tribal wars of the Reformation; the Hobbes/Lockean settlement; how Locke shifted property from inheritance to a set of skills; the cruelty of the growth economy; usury; the absence of any common good in Succession; the donor class of both major parties; the geographic and class sorting of Americans into separate bubbles; Michael Sandel and “thickness”; Uganda’s anti-gay laws; and whether we should bring back Sabbath laws.

Browse the Dishcast archive for another conversation you might enjoy (the first 102 episodes are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Tabia Lee on her firing as a DEI director, David Grann on an 18th-century mutiny that’s a “parable for our own turbulent time,” and Matt Lewis on ruling-class elites. Please send your guest recs and pod dissent to [email protected].

Transcript

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0:00.0	The Hi there. Here we are again. Another dishcast. As I speak to you, I'm looking out of my window at a beautiful blue bay, blue skies, some wild roses growing
0:43.4	in the dune grass, and all as well with the world, at least kind of. This week, we have
0:51.2	someone who, I guess we've been kind of circling each other for quite a while, as it were intellectually.
0:57.4	Anyway, I'm glad, really psyched to have him here.
1:00.1	His name is Patrick Deneen.
1:01.9	He's a writer and academic based at the University of Notre Dame.
1:05.9	He's professor of political science and constitutional studies.
1:09.6	His books include The Odyssey of Political Theory,
1:12.8	and more recently, why liberalism failed. Now, his new book is a kind of, almost kind of a sequel
1:19.2	to why liberalism failed. It's what's next, really. And it's called regime change
1:24.7	toward a post-liberal future.
1:29.2	That'll get your nerves tingling, I'm sure, and the hair on the back of your neck
1:35.3	rising.
1:36.1	Post-liberalism, here we come.
1:38.6	Just a reminder that we also have coming up on the show, David Gran, speaking about his wonderful new book. And Dr. Tobiah
1:48.5	Lee, otherwise known as Lee, who the black woman who was fired as DEI director for actually
1:54.1	believing in, you know, individual thought, treating people as individuals hoping for maximum inclusion, those kind of things.
2:03.7	Of course, have no place in DEI. Anyway, that's probably something that our current guest
2:10.2	will be happy to hear. He knows that I'm with him on many of these topics, but have some
2:14.3	questions. Patrick, welcome to the dishcast. Can I ask you what I ask
2:19.6	everybody, which is tell me about where you were born and how you grew up. Sure. Well, as I'm
2:26.7	looking out at my hotel room, you know, tote colored walls in New York City where I'm currently
	...

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