Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Maul.

Katie, do you think the media has learned its lessons from 2016 and will cover the election

differently in 2020 or is Trump destined to suck up all the oxygen again?

I would say Trump's destined to come up all the oxygen again.

Pretty hard. Yeah. He's a genius at it. That is his genius.

He gains the press, I think, and he's that his is one skill.

He is such a good marketer and such a good manipulator of the message, right?

I think also from the very beginning, I think we fell into a particular kind of trap where we said we don't want to normalize him.

So anything he does it's outside the norm, we're going to react to aggressively.

Well, he loves that. So he knows now that we're going to respond.

I sometimes think it, what if you just had a week? It was no matter what you do, we won't cover you.

And just like, I thought it was.

And you know, see, I mean, it can't work any worse.

You think all attention's good attention, but I think that media outlets have to make a concerted effort not to fall into that trap.

The problem is something called the most popular list.

Because the moment you have a title that says Trump, whatever, it is going to pop.

And we're outrageous.

If I write a column about the oppression of weavers in Western China, you're talking about a million people in gulags, but people aren't going to care.

If it's Trump's latest bad tweet, it will pop.

And so some kind of self-discipline is required by journalists.

Exactly what you said a week of a Trump kind of pervade.

The outrage on both sides sells, and that's why both sides does it.

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