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Visit sumup.co.uk to learn more. I'm John Thatcher with Sean Kingsley and Rex Cowan, the author of the new book, The Pirate King,

The Strange Adventures of Henry Avery and the Birth of the Golden Age of Piracy.

Avery's gone. He's disappeared. It's now 1696 in an inn called

the World's End. And in that inn, at that day, is a man contemplating his own fate. His name

is foe, but he takes on the name Defoe because it sounds more princely. He's always in trouble.

He's always in debt. He's always come up with new schemes. He was born well and he lost it in a big

gamble of sailing from one side of the world to the other. And he needs a way out. And the way out, of course,

is that he's made friends with the reigning monarch

King William who came over in the glorious revolution.

Rexa come to you at this moment because you meet foe that you introduce foe who becomes

defoe and you're a measure of him as a, not just

as a novelist, we know him as Robinson

Crow, as a merchantman. Is this

representative of the time you gambled

and you won bigger, you lost?

Thanks, Rex.

...