Oona Hathaway and Scott Shapiro on 'The Internationalists'
The Lawfare Podcast
The Lawfare Institute
4.7 • 6.4K Ratings
🗓️ 29 September 2017
⏱️ 46 minutes
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Summary
The Kellogg-Briand Pact is often remembered as a failure; signed in 1928 to outlaw war, it was followed in just over a decade by one of the deadliest conflicts in history. But Oona Hathaway and Scott Shapiro see the Pact differently. In their new book, "The Internationalists: How a Radical Plan to Outlaw War Remade the World," they argue that though it did not successfully end all war, the Pact changed the way states resolve disputes, reduced the likelihood of conquest, and set of a chain of events that led to the modern world order. On September 11, they sat down with Jack Goldsmith at the Hoover Book Soiree to discuss their book and its implications.
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| 0:22.0 | rational security, chatter, law fair no bull, and the aftermath. |
| 0:29.0 | This first draft, Do You En Charter, which was written by James T. Schottwell, |
| 0:37.0 | as part of a team that was working within the State Department beginning in 1942, |
| 0:42.0 | trying to come up with an answer to the question when the war ends, |
| 0:45.0 | how do we keep the peace? |
| 0:47.0 | And he literally at the very first draft cut and paste the pact, |
| 0:51.0 | at the beginning of the draft of the UN Charter. |
| 0:54.0 | So you look at this early draft, Do You En Charter, |
| 0:56.0 | it looks much like Do You En Charter looks today, |
| 0:58.0 | but it has the pact literally written right at the very beginning. |
| 1:01.0 | And that becomes the discussion draft, |
| 1:05.0 | and they kind of revise it and revamp it. |
| 1:08.0 | So it basically morphs into what is today Article 2 4, |
| 1:12.0 | The UN Charter that is a prohibition on the use of force. |
| 1:15.0 | We think that that lineage actually is quite useful to understand, |
| 1:19.0 | because you understand what they're really trying to do, |
| 1:21.0 | is take the pact and embed it with an institutional framework. |
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