One American Family’s Debt to Ukraine

The Experiment

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4.5 • 2.8K Ratings

🗓️ 10 March 2022

⏱️ 36 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

As Putin invaded Ukraine last month, the Atlantic writer Franklin Foer found the Russian leader’s justification for violence uncanny. Putin referred to the “Nazification” of Ukraine—a distortion of history at best. But Franklin was told a similar story his whole life from his grandmother. This week, The Experiment tells the story of the Holocaust survivor Ethel Kaplan, and traces Franklin Foer’s own journey—how he once came to believe Putin’s myth, and his journey to Ukraine to debunk it.

Further reading: “It’s Not ‘The’ Ukraine,” I Want You to Know We’re Still Here: A Post-Holocaust Memoir.

A transcript of this episode is available.

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This episode was produced by Salman Ahad Khan and Julia Longoria, with editing by Emily Botein. Reporting by Franklin Foer and Esther Foer. Fact-check by Sam Fentress. Sound design by Joe Plourde. Transcription by Caleb Codding. Special thanks to Andy Lanset and Roberto De La Noval.

Transcript

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0:00.0	Just a heads up, this is a story about the realities of war and genocide.
0:06.0	Wanted to let you know that up front.
0:09.0	And for this we will be streaming the civilization and the civilization.
0:16.0	Dear comrades, your fathers, your grandfather's father against the Nazis.
0:21.0	Not so that Nazis could now take over power in Ukraine.
0:25.0	It's a repeated refrain from Vladimir Putin and his acolytes.
0:28.0	Putin has said he wants to quote...
0:30.0	De-Nazify the Ukrainian government that they are a liberating force from essentially an oppressive Nazi government.
0:37.0	HENGO HENGO HENGO HENGO HENGO
0:48.0	I'm curious like when you heard Putin say that he was going to de-Nazify Ukraine
0:53.0	and that Ukraine was full of neo-Nazis, what went through your mind?
0:57.0	When I heard Putin say that I thought about my own journey with Ukraine
1:03.0	because there was a point not so long ago when I would have agreed with him.
1:10.0	Franklin Fawar is a staff writer at the Atlantic.
1:13.0	Or you know, thought that there was some truth to what he was saying because I grew up with my grandmother's stories.
1:19.0	Franklin's grandma and Vladimir Putin happened to have a similar story that they've told themselves about Ukraine.
1:26.0	As you might imagine, they don't have a whole lot else in common.
1:30.0	Now we have grandma Ethel here. I'm so pleased to have her here.
1:34.0	My grandmother's name was Ethel.
1:36.0	Before she passed away in December 2018, Ethel was a guest on the Martha Stewart show.
1:41.0	So one cup of matzimilk.
1:43.0	Yeah, that's right.
	...

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