It's perhaps the most single important organisation in history, Titanic in scale, vast in influence over not just its own flock of 1.4 billion Catholics,

but also the whole of global politics. And also famously reactionary, a force of deep resistance

to change in a world that insisted on nevertheless changing, until suddenly it wasn't.

Back in 2013, Pope Francis was elected and the church's outward politics seemed transformed.

Earlier this year, a friend heavily involved in migrant solidarity work in Italy told me that as unlikely as it might seem, the Catholic Church was now the main progressive force in politics there.

Francis has been in the last decade almost alone on the international stage in insisting on the universal dignity of human beings, in an era in which the very idea has been repeatedly

trashed. He wasn't perfect, that's one of the teachers, but he was maybe the best

pope we will ever see. Matthew Sittman is the host of the podcast, Know Your Enemy,

which examines the American right and the far right. We discuss

the struggle taking place inside the church, between progressivism and reaction, how the church

can resist the slow glide into being little more than an NGO with an art collection, how the

church reconciles its immense worldly power with the teachings

of Christ. And of course, did he like the film Concleve? But before we start, I wanted to say

that, unlike the Catholic Church, Navarra Media unfortunately doesn't have any priceless artwork

to sell off. Everything we do is funded by you, including all of our podcasts,

like this one, our new series committed, and the rest of Navarra FM. So support independent

media. Head to navaramedia.com forward slash support. Matthew Sittman, welcome to Navarra FM.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

So am I.

I have been learning more about the Catholic Church

than I think I ever really thought that I needed to

...