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I think the lesson that you get from Venezuela is very clearly this.

Dictatorships come out of democracies.

It does not have to be a group of men with aviator glasses and guns coming out of their military barracks and taking over things in a coup.

And now the good fight with Yasha Monk.

Welcome to the podcast that searches for the ideas, policies and strategies that can be to the

retiring populists like Donald Trump over the next four years and the next 40.

A few days ago I was at a big sort of fancy conference in New York,

you know one of those things that convenes a whole bunch of world leaders to talk to or mostly at an audience of CEOs and media leaders and so on.

And one of the people who came to speak,

as well as some more liberal pen-ep boys,

like Justin Trudeau and Emmanuel Macron,

was the authoritarian pen-up boy,

Rasepe Erdogan, the president of Turkey, and it was quite chilling actually to be in the same room, I mean a few yards away from one of the people who we've talked and thought about on this podcast, one of the people who we've talked and thought about in this

podcast one of the people who are very much at the forefront of the illiberal

international who when asked for example about his treatment of journalists was

...