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This is a new president who is a former president, Lula De Silva,

traveling to Washington to meet with President Biden to make remarks about the Amazon,

about climate change, to meet with members of the Senate, important members of the Senate,

what appeared from the outside to be a festive atmosphere, two men sharing a great deal of experiences together,

the president, the two presidents in the Oval Office.

Ernesto, I come to you, were there any surprises to you in the visit of President De Silva to Lula De Silva to Washington?

Anything you had not expected to see?

Well, John, unfortunately not, no surprises.

I expected, and many people in Brazil expected, a visit that's basically a show off of Lula

and some sort of legitimation of his government, of his administration by the U.S. and the international community.

Since we have so many sources of illegitimacy in Brazil, the fact that Lula is a convicted corrupt person,

although later freed by the justice.

Anyway, so I think this is what the visit was meant for, for legitimation purposes, and that happened.

Otherwise, it was totally empty in terms of concrete results.

I compare it very unfavorably with the visit of President Bolsonaro to Washington back in 2019,

...