I don't think I really understood in seminary how relentless this battle would be and how

much discernment it would take and how it would affect relationships.

How many relationships eventually look like to go in the right direction, but are sacrificed

to an unwillingness to do battle.

And you wind up sort of at the end of your life, having been stripped of people who at some

point gave in to the other side, and the ranks get thinner and thinner.

I'm sort of living in that era.

I'm living in an era on one hand as a shepherd and a pastor where I have 50 years of loving

people who have filled my life with so much love and so much kindness and so much affection

that it's just beyond comprehension.

And that's Grace Church. And that's the people who hear the Word of God and believe it and follow it.

But on the other hand, I watch my life as it comes to an end being stripped of relationships with many, many evangelical leaders.

Because at some point, they're unwilling to stand where I stand.

They will call up and ask, how do we re-engage with MacArthur?

What did we do?

And it really comes down to whether or not you're a faithful soldier.

Well, it is time for the Conversations That Matter podcast, and you just heard the voice of John MacArthur. I have played that clip before, and I know I play it now with some sadness.

You can probably hear some of it in my voice.

I miss them, right?

And there's a lot of people. I was realizing that this morning that I missed, not just personal, but public figures. It wasn't that long ago, it feels like to me, at least, Rush Limbaugh died. And I wasn't a huge follower of Jerry Falwell or anything, but I remember when he died, and it was was a giant it was like a giant fell it was a

moment that everyone just thought what's next and we're in that moment now and we're in that

moment in ways I've never seen it with John MacArthur and of course Charlie Kirk and Vody

...