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Hello and welcome to More or Less. We're the programme that casts the net of truth across

the sea of spurious statistics and into the maya of murky mathematics, hopefully remembering

to keep hold of the rope. Coming up, we act as an umpire between Donald Trump and the

European Union to find out who gives the most money to Ukraine. We find out whether the

humble bacon sandwich has finally regained its good name, and we tell you how to avoid

being struck by lightning. You are welcome. But first, Matt Hancock, the health secretary,

has announced a plan to build 14 new hospitals in England, echoed by Boris Johnson in his

conference speech this week. But media reports have been confused, how much will this cost

and when will these hospitals be built? The figure £3 billion has been talked about,

but that doesn't actually seem very much for 40 hospitals. Richard Murray, the chief executive

of the health policy think tank, the King's Fund, has been helping me get to the bottom

of it all.

What the government has promised and has named six hospitals that will be built, will

be made to refurbishments, we know where they are and the money looks like it's there

to do it. But of course many more hospitals than that need to be updated. And so another

34 are going to be given money to develop the plans to enable them to be rebuilt, but

that will be after 2025, so that is some time away. And that's the difference between

the six off you go, kind of get the builders in and the 34 come up with the plan.

Right. But even with the six, they're not necessarily greenfield sites, they will often

be redeveloping an old hospital. Mostly that is the case, yes. I mean,

England has quite a lot of hospitals, doesn't really need brand new ones in completely

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