This is the waves.

This is the waves.

This is the waves.

This is the waves.

This is the waves. This is the waves, Slate's podcast about gender, feminism, and getting paid.

Every episode you get a new pair of feminists to talk about the thing we cannot get off our minds.

And today you've got me, Emily Peck, markets corresponded at Axios and co-host of Slate Money.

And me, Phoebe Gavin, a career coach and executive director of Talent and Development for Vox.com.

I am so excited for this conversation.

Today we're here to talk about a kind of still somewhat, maybe a little taboo taboo topic which is of course getting paid the art of salary

negotiation despite all the stories you may have read over the years and what a lot of people might have you think and maybe

this is controversial I'm here to tell you we work to make money and women as

listeners already know tend to make less of the money because of pay discrimination

because of caregiving needs at home because they might be in lower paying

professions or allegedly because they didn't negotiate for more.

I've written about salary negotiation and the gender pay gap for a long time,

but best of all, Phoebe knows a lot about this.

So I wanted to hear all your tips and advice. So this is a topic I can't stop thinking about because even as we work so hard to dismantle the structural barriers and redesign the cultural dynamics, women and

non-binary people still have to figure out how to get paid right here, right now, in this

deeply flawed system that is still very much stacked against them.

And there are so many additional layers as well.

I'm a black woman from a low income background,

...