Thank you for listening to the Allender Center podcast. I'm Dr. Dan Allender.

And I'm Rachel Clinton-Cent. We're fiercely committed to providing hope and healing to a fragmented world.

And restoration for the heart. Thank you for joining us. Let's get this conversation started.

Rachel, we have a privilege that is immense.

We are going to introduce our third party in a moment.

But let's just say we have come out of a profoundly difficult year into a new

profoundly difficult year where we can't escape trauma, where we cannot escape significant heartache.

And as we address this issue of narcissism,

we cannot escape the reality that we live among narcissistic cultures, systems, and individuals.

And it may be, for many people, like,

oh, God, can't you guys do something positive?

And the answer is, this is really positive

because the greater and more,

we engage reality,

more of the presence of God shows God's self.

And so let me introduce Chuck de Groat.

Chuck is a professor at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. And he is a counseling and Christian spirituality professor. But he's also just a dear man who's written, well, some amazing things. But what we're

going to be talking about mostly today is this book where narcissism comes to the church.

But to say the book, wholeheartedness, it's a sweet book. Toughest people to love. I thought you were describing me,

but I would say, indeed, it is a profound work. And I think your first book was leaving Egypt.

But let's just say you are a prolific presence and a gift to the community of God in terms of dealing with things that a lot of people have chosen to escape.

So thank you, Chuck, for being with us.

...