"My disenchantment with Zionism was a very gradual process" w/ Avi Shlaim
Makdisi Street
Bayt al Makdisi
4.9 • 644 Ratings
🗓️ 1 February 2026
⏱️ 47 minutes
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Summary
A special edition of the Makdisi Street podcast in which Ussama interviews fellow historian Avi Shlaim in Jaipur, India where both were attending the Jaipur Literature Festival. Ussama asks Avi about his new book Genocide in Gaza, the history of coexistence devastated by the project of colonial Zionism, and about when and why Avi became an anti-Zionist. They discuss the importance of archives, ethical history writing, the virulent anti-Palestinian racism of Benny Morris, and the significance about the refusal of the historical profession's leading bodies in the West to take a clear stand against genocide.
Date of recording: January 15, 2026
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | My disenchantment with Zionism was a very gradual process that began in the aftermath of the June |
| 0:09.0 | 1967 war. By the time the war broke out as a first year history student at Cambridge, and I realized |
| 0:19.0 | that Israel was continuing a colonial project across the green line. My army |
| 0:27.2 | was transformed from the Israel defense forces into a brutal police force for a brutal colonial power. |
| 0:38.3 | And this process of disenchantment with Zionism has been going on ever since. |
| 0:45.3 | Hello everyone, this is Usama. I'm back in Berkeley after a long trip to Lebanon and to India. |
| 0:52.3 | And in India and Jaipur, I had the pleasure to really |
| 0:56.3 | to sit down and talk with Professor Abbe Shlheim, |
| 0:59.5 | a fellow historian of the modern Middle East. |
| 1:01.6 | And we discussed Avi's new book. |
| 1:04.5 | It's called Genocide in Gaza. |
| 1:08.2 | And it's sort of a series of essays that Ave has put together and that was just published. |
| 1:12.6 | We talked about coexistence. |
| 1:14.6 | We talked about the history of like when did Avey become an anti-Zionist, why? |
| 1:20.6 | And we also talked of course about the extraordinarily negative impact of Zionism on the reality of coexistence in the Middle East. |
| 1:30.1 | So if you enjoy this episode, this bonus episode really, please consider signing up to our |
| 1:37.2 | Patreon subscription and give us a review and give us feedback, of course. |
| 1:41.8 | And we look forward to seeing you on another show soon. |
| 1:45.1 | Take care. |
| 1:46.0 | Welcome everyone to a new episode of the Mahdi-C-Street Street podcast. My name is Usama, and I'm here |
| 1:51.5 | with a colleague, Professor Abbe Shlame, at the In Jaipur, and just offstage is his daughter, |
| 1:59.4 | Tamar, whom I may have a chance to interview very briefly |
... |
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