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The Ezra Klein Show

Michelle Goldberg Grapples With Feminism After Roe

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.6 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 8 July 2022

⏱️ 81 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

“It’s true: We’re in trouble,” writes Michelle Goldberg of the modern feminist movement. “One thing backlashes do is transform a culture’s common sense and horizons of possibility. A backlash isn’t just a political formation. It’s also a new structure of feeling that makes utopian social projects seem ridiculous.” It wouldn’t be fair to blame the Supreme Court decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization and the ensuing wave of draconian abortion laws sweeping the nation on a failure of persuasion, or on a failure of the women’s movement. But signs of anti-feminist backlash are permeating American culture: Girlbosses have become figures of ridicule, Amber Heard’s testimony drew a fire hose of misogyny, and recent polling finds that younger generations — both men and women — are feeling ambivalent about whether feminism has helped or hurt women. A movement that has won so many victories in law, politics and public opinion is now defending its very existence. Goldberg is a columnist for Times Opinion who focuses on gender and politics. In recent weeks, she has written a series of columns grappling with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, but also considering the broader atmosphere that created so much despair on the left. What can feminists — and Democrats more broadly — learn from anti-abortion organizers? How has the women’s movement changed in the half-century since Roe, and where can the movement go after this loss? Has feminism moved too far away from its early focus on organizing and into the turbulent waters of online discourse? Has it become a victim of its own success? We discuss a “flabbergasting” poll about the way young people — both men and women — feel about feminism, why so many young people have become pessimistic about heterosexual relationships, how the widespread embrace of feminism defanged its politics, why the anti-abortion movement is so good at recruiting and retaining activists — and what the left can learn from them, how today’s backlash against women compares to that of the Reagan years, why nonprofits on the left are in such extreme turmoil, why a social movement’s obsession with “cringe” can be its downfall, how “safe spaces” on the left started to feel unsafe, why feminism doesn’t always serve poor women, whether the #MeToo movement was overly dismissive of “due process” and how progressives could improve the way they talk about the family and more. Mentioned: “The Future Isn’t Female Anymore” by Michelle Goldberg “Amber Heard and the Death of #MeToo” by Michelle Goldberg Rethinking Sex by Christine Emba The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry Bad Sex by Nona Willis Aronowitz “Elephant in the Zoom” by Ryan Grim “The Tyranny of Structurelessness” by Jo Freeman “Lessons From the Terrible Triumph of the Anti-Abortion Movement” by Michelle Goldberg The Making of Pro-Life Activists by Ziad W. Munson Steered by the Reactionary: What To Do About Feminism by The Drift Book Recommendations: Backlash by Susan Faludi No More Nice Girls by Ellen Willis Status and Culture by W. David Marx Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin and RogĂ© Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm as reclined, this is the Ezra Conchell.

0:22.8

I think it's important to say here at the beginning that the dobs decision doesn't reflect

0:28.7

the pro-choice side losing the argument.

0:31.4

The Republican court majority that overturned Roe was appointed mostly by presidents who

0:35.6

lost the popular vote but took the White House anyway.

0:38.6

The dobs decision itself is really unpopular.

0:42.1

Poll after poll shows Americans opposed it.

0:44.8

A recent UGov survey went further and offered 11 choices, some positive, some negative,

0:51.3

so people could describe how they felt.

0:54.2

Disgusted led the pack, followed by sad, angry, and then outraged.

1:01.0

Conservatives overturned Roe by winning power, not by winning hearts and minds.

1:06.2

Even so, feminism as a political movement is in fraught shape.

1:12.0

This is an era of backlash from polling showing that nearly half of Democratic men under 50

1:17.1

think feminism has done more harm than good to their Republican party's embrace of Donald

1:21.3

Trump as their standard bearer and leader to the abuse heaped on Amber Heard during the

1:27.3

Heard Dept trial.

1:29.7

Even if Roe didn't fall because of persuasion, its restoration will require persuasion,

1:36.3

and not just persuasion but organizing and the attainment of a lot of political power.

1:43.1

My colleague Michele Goldberg has written a series of columns exploring these issues

1:46.7

that I found provocative in the best way.

1:49.2

They raise really hard and uncomfortable questions and they don't pretend to find easy answers

1:53.8

or that there's any black and white here.

...

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