Michael Levin and Anil Seth: Your Brain Is Not a Computer

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 22 September 2025

⏱️ 69 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Anil Seth and Michael Levin debate whether brains are computers, how consciousness relates to substrate, and if algorithms can ever capture life and mind. Levin argues machines can access a platonic space of agency via embodied interfaces, xenobots, and compositional agents, while Seth challenges the software-hardware split using information theory, Granger causality, and psychophysics. Together they probe islands of awareness, degeneracy, bubble-sort side quests, LLM surprises, alignment, and how to ask better scientific questions.- 00:00 - Anil Seth & Michael Levin: Islands of Consciousness & Xenobots- 08:24 - Substrate Dependence: Why Biology Isn't Just 'Wetware'- 13:13 - Beyond Algorithms: Do Machines Tap Into a 'Platonic Space'?- 21:46 - The Ghost in the Algorithm: Emergent Agency in Bubble Sort- 29:26 - Degeneracy: The Biological Principle AI is Missing- 36:34 - The Multiplicity of Agency: Are Your Cells Conscious?- 43:24 - Unconscious Processing or Inaccessible Consciousness? The Split-Brain Problem- 49:32 - The Ultimate Experiment to Decode Consciousness- 57:31 - A Counter-Intuitive Discovery: Consciousness is Less Emergent- 1:03:39 - Psychedelics, LLMs, and the Frontiers of SurpriseSPONSORS:- HelloFresh: Get 10 Free Meals + a Free Item for Life. One per box with active subscription; free meals applied as discount on first box; new subscribers only; varies by plan. http://HelloFresh.com/THEORIESOFEVERYTHING10FM- Claude: 50% off Claude Pro, including Claude Code. http://claude.ai/theoriesofeverythingRESOURCES:- Michael Levin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s- Anil Seth [TOE]: https://youtu.be/_hUEqXhDbVs- Geoffrey Hinton [TOE]: https://youtu.be/b_DUft-BdIE- Living Things Are Not Machines [Article]: https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/- Classical Sorting Algorithms [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.05375- Michael Levin and Anna Ciaunica [TOE]: https://youtu.be/2aLhkm6QUgA- Being You: A New Science of Consciousness [Book]: https://www.amazon.com/Being-You-New-Science-Consciousness/dp/1524742872/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0- The Consciousness Iceberg [TOE]: https://youtu.be/65yjqIDghEk- Iain McGilchrist [TOE]: https://youtu.be/Q9sBKCd2HD0- Matt Segall [TOE]: https://youtu.be/DeTm4fSXpbM- Andres Gomez-Emilsson [TOE]: https://youtu.be/gi08eVU_-f8- MIT's Augmentation Summit: https://augmentationlab.org/summit- Granger Causality Analysis [Paper]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25716830/- Dynamical Independence [Paper]: https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.99.022143 Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. SPONSOR: I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE FOLLOW: Substack | Spotify | YouTube | Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	I make the additional really weird claim that I don't think algorithms capture everything
0:05.0	we need to know about life. We've to go on that the idea of the brain as a computer is a metaphor
0:09.7	and not the thing itself. There's no bright line between what it does and what it is.
0:15.8	That would not be what I would have predicted.
0:19.7	This is a monumental theolocation.
0:22.9	For the first time ever, Professor Anil Seth
0:26.2	and Professor Michael Levin are conversing and performing research in real time,
0:31.4	and we get to be the flies on the wall.
0:33.7	Anil says that the brain as a computer metaphor has blinded us for decades.
0:38.7	You can't extract the software from the substrate.
0:42.3	This means that silicone consciousness may be impossible, not because machines lack dualistic souls, though.
0:48.2	But wait, Michael disagrees.
0:50.9	He thinks that machines may be able to access the same platonic space that biological systems
0:55.6	tap into. The magic isn't restricted to carbon. Both professors are now building and studying
1:02.4	xenobots together. These are living robots made from skin cells that self-organized,
1:07.7	exhibiting behaviors evolution never programmed. Do they dream? Do they have preferences?
1:12.2	Are they conscious? On this episode of theories of everything, we explore their radical collaboration,
1:17.7	including questions like how split-brain patients may prove consciousness fragments and multiplies,
1:23.2	and the terrifying possibility that large language models are doing something entirely different
1:29.0	from what their output suggests.
1:31.2	Tasks no programmer asked for, no steps in the code demand for,
1:35.4	but perhaps where that quote-unquote magic lies.
	...

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