Michael Gottlieb on that Giant Judgment Against Rudy Giuliani

The Lawfare Podcast

The Lawfare Institute

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4.7 • 6.4K Ratings

🗓️ 9 January 2024

⏱️ 53 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Michael J. Gottlieb is a litigation partner at the Willkie law firm. He is a long-time national security lawyer, served in Barack Obama's White House Counsel's office, and used to be the civilian lead on a task force that built rule of law institutions in Afghanistan.

Late last year, he won a $148 million dollar judgment against Rudy Giuliani on behalf of election workers Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman. He joined Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to talk about the case, how he and the advocacy group Protect Democracy teamed up to use defamation law to fight disinformation and the big lie, what the use of defamation in this way can and cannot be expected to do, and how he went from building rule of law institutions in Afghanistan to representing people who have had their lives turned upside down by a toxic media ecosystem.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	The following podcast contains advertising.
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0:08.0	become a material supporter of Lawfair at Patreon.com slash Lawfair. That's Patreon.com
0:16.4	slash Lawfair. Also check out Lawfair's other podcast offerings, rational security, chatter, lawfare no bull, and the aftermath.
0:28.6	You match with Maya on Tindare. You agree you don't fancy each other, but she makes you laugh till it hurts.
0:37.0	She dragged you to a mate's house in the Northern Quarter, and you actually have a great time. You with some new people like Isaac and decide to go to the
0:46.3	gallery on Mosley Street where you bond over your shared appreciation of silence and bit by bit
0:52.4	the world starts to feel so full of possibilities and you
0:56.2	think what if I hadn't met Maya on tinder? It starts with a swipe. Download the
1:01.1	up now.
1:16.7	Anyone who heard some of the threats that they had to live with and have continued to have to live with for more than three years now
1:26.1	Anybody who listened to any of that material that we played in court or read about any of it, I think, knows it's going to take time to repair what they've been through. But we hope that what happened in December is a really good first step down that path.
1:34.0	I'm Benjamin Wittis and this is the Law Fair Podcast, January 9th, 2024.
1:41.0	Michael J. Gottlieb is a litigation partner at the Wilkie law firm.
1:47.8	He is a longtime national security lawyer.
1:51.2	He served in Barack Obama's White House Council's office and he used to be the
1:57.1	civilian lead on a task force that built rule of law institutions in Afghanistan. He's had a bit of a career change recently.
2:07.0	Late last year he won a $148 million judgment against Rudy Giuliani on behalf of election workers,
2:17.0	Shay Moss and Ruby Freeman. He joined me in the virtual jungle studio to talk about the case,
2:25.0	how he and the advocacy group Protect Democracy teamed up to use defamation law to
2:33.4	disinformation and the big lie.
2:37.2	What the use of defamation in this way can and cannot be expected to do and how he went from building rule of law
	...

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