Brian there on WNYC. With us now, historian of marriage, Stephanie Kuntz,

her classic book that blew the whistle on false nostalgia was called The Way We Never

Were.

In a new book, she explores personal and policy choices that could make marriage the best

it could be for most couples at a time when marriage rates are in decline.

Here's some polling data to set this up.

Americans still overwhelmingly say marriage is the highest commitment a couple can

make about seven and ten Americans say marriage is important for a fulfilling life. That's according to the

most recent Pew Research data from 2023. But among young adults, the number is much lower. That

Pew survey found that among people 18 to 34 in this country,

only 20% said being married is extremely or very important for living a fulfilling life. There's a

gender gap in that data too, with more and more young women saying marriage is less relevant to them. And not surprisingly,

the sentiment also skews more liberal than conservative politically. So there's that political gap as well.

Stephanie Kuntz is the director of research and public education for the Council on Contemporary Families

and Professor Emeritus now at the Evergreen State College.

Another of her previous books, Marriage, a History, recited in the U.S. Supreme Court decision,

legalizing same-sex marriage back in 2015.

In her new book out this week titled For Better and Worse, she takes on this

paradox, what she calls the marriage paradox, and argues that both camps dominating public debates,

that's those who see marriage as the only path to happiness, also the so-called tradwife

movement, and those who see it as inherently oppressive are wrong. Instead,

she proposes what she calls a radical middle ground grounded in history and new social

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