Welcome to the Jill on Money Podcast. It is Saturday, September 25th.

And today and tomorrow, I've got a great treat for you. It is my friend, Stacey Vannich

Smith. She is the host of NPR's The Indicator Podcast and I'm amazing podcast. I love it.

And she is also now the author of a new book. It's called Machiavelli for Women. Defend

Your Worth, Grow Your Ambition, and Win the Workplace. Stacey and I go back away. We met when

I used to appear on a marketplace radio program. We became friends and it's just been a delight

to watch her flourish. And she is younger than I am, as is almost everybody else. And she's

just one of the greatest eggs in the whole financial journalism universe. And I'm so grateful

to counter as a friend. And I'm happy that she is here today to talk about this book. So here

is the first part of our interview with Stacey Vannich Smith. How did you come up with this idea

with the concept, at least, of adapting the words, the thoughts of Machiavelli who, you know,

doesn't have a great wrap right now. Horrible reputation. I know. Well, the Machiavelli

part actually came later. So initially, you know, I've just been reporting on business

and the economy for a long time. And one of the issues that comes up in various ways,

is sort of women and the economy and women at work. And because I am a woman in the economy,

I think I probably took a special interest in it. And I did a few pieces that I was doing

a piece on the pay gap. So I was interviewing economists who sort of focus on the pay gap.

I remember learning that it basically hadn't moved very much in 20 years and hadn't

moved really at all in 10. And this is like women make 80 cents on the dollar compared to men.

For black women, it's like 63 cents for indigenous and Latina women. It's 55 cents. I mean,

the numbers are terrible. And I was like, how is this not moved in a decade? And then I started

looking and a lot of things haven't moved for a decade. Like 80% of CEOs are men. 90% of CEOs

...