But when it comes to the idea of the Jewish state, there's still this kind of taboo around really challenging it, right?

And the point this report was trying to make is, okay, you can condemn ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the West Bank today.

Denial of return is locking in the ethnic cleansing of 1948 because it was forged through ethnic cleansing,

maintained through apartheid, and through the denial of return.

And so for people, some people get it conceptually, right?

But the one area where the paradigm hasn't shifted is on the Jewish state argument because people, liberals, people can still parrot points about maintaining the Jewish state or we don't want to challenge it.

And it comes back to this fundamental notion, right?

That there's still a group of people that has to find in them a good Israel to separate

the bad Israel.

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Maknessy Street podcast.

We are delighted this week to have with us Omar Shaker,

lately of Human Rights Watch. Amar holds a JD from Stanford Law School, where he co-authored

to report on the civilian consequences of U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan as part of the

International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic. He also has an MA and Arab studies

from Georgetown University

School of Foreign Affairs and a BA in international relations also from Stanford. Amar served until

this month as the Israel and Palestine Director at Human Rights Watch, where he authored several major reports,

including a 2021 report comprehensively recording how Israeli authorities

are committing the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution against millions of Palestinians.

As a result of his advocacy, the Israeli government deported Omar in November 2019.

Before that, he was a birth of a fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights, where he focused

on U.S. counterterrorism policies, including legal representation of Guantanamo detainees.

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