Life and death and psilocybin

Outside/In

NHPR

Society & Culture, Documentary, Natural Sciences, Nature, Science

4.7 • 1.5K Ratings

🗓️ 13 May 2026

⏱️ 32 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

President Trump recently signed an executive order to make certain psychedelic drugs more available to treat mental health conditions like depression and PTSD. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Joe Rogan were in the oval office, and President Trump even joked during the signing ceremony, “can I have some, please?” Maybe this executive order wasn’t on your 2026 political bingo card… but interest in these substances for mental health isn’t new. In this episode, we’re revisiting the story of Kathy Kral. In the midst of her battle with cancer, Kathy found herself facing a diagnosis of major depression. So, she signed up for a clinical study to see if psilocybin – the psychedelic compound found in “magic mushrooms” – could help her confront her fears about cancer and death, as well as her deepest inner demons. This episode was first published in 2023. Featuring Kathleen Kral, Manish Agrawal, and Norma Stevens. Produced by Felix Poon. For full credits and transcript, visit ⁠outsideinradio.org⁠. SUPPORT Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to become a sustaining member of Outside/In. Follow Outside/In on Instagram or join our private discussion group on Facebook. LINKS Trump’s order is a milestone for proponents of using psychedelics as medicine. (NPR) Listen to the Sunstone Psilocybin Spotify Playlist that patients listen to during their psychedelic-assisted therapy sessions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	There are routine doctors appointments. Sure, those can be a little unpleasant.
0:06.0	But then there are things like MRIs and electrocardiograms, fertility appointments,
0:11.0	visits where everything feels a little alien.
0:15.0	This was one of those appointments.
0:18.0	We were told to bring pictures or anything to have something in the room with us.
0:23.6	So I brought pictures of my family and friends and so forth.
0:27.6	That's Kathy Krall.
0:28.6	A few years ago, she went to a special clinic just outside of Washington, D.C.
0:33.6	The room itself wasn't strange.
0:36.6	No beeping machines or medical posters on the wall,
0:40.3	just an average looking bed and a chair. It was comfortable.
0:44.3	And then Dr. Agarwal came in. He had ice cold water in a cup and the pills in a nice container.
0:58.0	Kathy took the pills with a gulp of water.
1:01.0	She laid down on the bed.
1:02.0	I put on the headphones and the eye shades.
1:06.0	And that's when the appointment really started.
1:10.0	Waves, tremendous waves, scary waves.
1:16.6	And if you get in them, they'll just throw you out of the water.
1:20.6	They could break your neck or anything.
1:25.6	I decided to go into them.
1:28.3	So I went into the waves.
1:35.3	But I was able to just float in them.
	...

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