You're listening to a podcast from the BBC World Service. This is Hard Talk with me, Stephen Sacker.

Thanks for downloading this edition of the program. I do hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacker. My guest today wields huge

influence inside the UK Labour Party, though he's never sought to be an elected politician.

Len McCluskey's power comes from the trade union movement, which he joined as a young dock worker

in Liverpool, and now as leader of Unite, the biggest financial backer of the Labour Party,

he is a dominant figure on the British left.

That much was obvious when Jeremy Corby, a hard left, backbench MP, unexpectedly won the party

leadership in 2015. Len McCluskey's backing was a decisive factor. But much has happened since then. Corbyn fought and lost two general

elections. And now Labor is looking for a new leader and new ideas. When it comes to saving the

party from a slow political death, is Len McCluskey part of the problem or the solution? Well, he joins me now.

Welcome to Hard Talk. Thank you. On the eve of last December's UK general election,

did you honestly think Labour was going to win? No. Honestly, no. I was predicting that Boris Johnson would gain a workable majority. I must

admit, I was shocked by the level of that majority, but it had become evident to me for some time

that Labour's drift into being a perceived Remain party was going to pay some problems,

give us some real problems in our heartlands. So you'd drawn your own personal conclusions

even before the votes had been cast? Yes, very much so. In fact, I had drawn those conclusions for over a year,

and I was attempting, along with others,

to try and persuade the Labour leadership

not to slip into that remain area.

And unfortunately, we did pay the consequences.

It's awfully convenient, isn't it, that the people around

...