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Amazon and wherever books are sold. Welcome to Nobody Told Me.

I'm Laura Owens and I'm Jan Black.

Most people are trying to change one habit or another for the better.

And they've probably tried to change before, but without much luck.

Our guest on this episode, Professor Katie Milkman, is an award-winning behavioral scientist at the Wharton School.

And Katie's research explores ways that insights from economics and psychology can be used to change behaviors for good.

She's the author of a new book on that topic called How to Change the Science

of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be. Katie, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm wondering how your background in engineering affects your

approach to this topic of change. I think it has a big impact. And I love that question.

It isn't something I realized was shaping the way I approached the topic for many years.

And actually, when I sat down to write this book and looked back at the different discoveries

that I had made and the discoveries my colleagues had made that I found

most exciting and most useful, I realized there was a common theme, which was that each of those

discoveries really harnessed an understanding of what the forces of opposition to change were

and tailored a solution that was well suited to countering those forces.

And an engineer is trained to think about the world in terms of, you know, forces and counter

forces to design with an understanding of the environment that they're up against.

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