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Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Joscha Bach and Karl Friston: What Happens When the Self Dissolves?

Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal

Curt Jaimungal

Physics, Philosophy, Society & Culture, Science

4.6 • 606 Ratings

🗓️ 12 December 2023

⏱️ 159 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Karl Friston, Joscha Bach, and Curt Jaimungal explore death, AI models of the brain, God, and the nature of consciousness. They debate self‑organization, overlapping realities, and the future of substrate‑agnostic intelligence.0:00 Introduction1:47 New paper discussion9:13 Sentience vs consciousness vs self21:00 Self‑organization and self‑evidencing29:02 Overlapping realities as art41:05 Mortal computation and substrate‑agnostic AI56:38 Beyond von Neumann architectures1:00:23 AI surpassing human researchers1:20:34 Exploring vs exploiting (curiosity risk)1:27:02 Incompleteness and interdependence1:32:25 Defining consciousness1:53:36 Multiple overlapping consciousnesses2:03:03 Unified experience & schizophrenia insights2:10:16 Psychedelic experiences2:22:20 Institutional rot in science2:23:31 OpenAI CEO controversy2:32:22 Existential crises in consciousness research2:35:06 Podcast wrap‑upSPONSORS:- HelloFresh: Go to https://HelloFresh.com/theoriesofever... and use code theoriesofeverythingfree for FREE breakfast for life!- Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal (early access to ad‑free audio episodes!)- Crypto: https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE- PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt- Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs- iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802- Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e- Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything- TOE Merch: https://tinyurl.com/TOEmerchRESOURCES:- Mortal Computation, a Foundation for Biomimetic Intelligence (Karl Friston): https://arxiv.org/abs/2311.09589- A Path to Generative Artificial Selves (Joscha Bach and Liane Gabora): https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/y3tzs- Podcast w/ Joshua on TOE (solo): https://youtu.be/3MNBxfrmfmI- Podcast w/ Joscha Bach & Ben Goertzel on TOE: https://youtu.be/xw7omaQ8SgA- Podcast w/ Joscha Bach & John Vervaeke on TOE: https://youtu.be/rK7ux_JhHM4- Podcast w/ Joscha Bach & Michael Levin on TOE: https://youtu.be/kgMFnfB5E_A- Podcast w/ Joscha Bach & Donald Hoffman on TOE: https://youtu.be/bhSlYfVtgww- Podcast w/ Karl Friston solo on TOE: https://youtu.be/SWtFU1Lit3M- Podcast w/ Karl Friston & Michael Levin on TOE: https://youtu.be/J6eJ44Jq_pw- Podcast w/ Karl Friston & Anna Lemke on TOE: COMING- Podcast w/ Michael Levin on TOE: https://youtu.be/Z0TNfysTazc- I Am a Strange Loop (Douglas Hofstadter): https://amzn.to/3GGqjpM Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal features long-form, technically detailed interviews with leading researchers in physics, mathematics, consciousness, and philosophy, exploring topics at the level of active research. For academics, graduate students, and anyone seeking depth beyond popular science. SPONSOR: I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE FOLLOW: Substack | Spotify | YouTube | Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

There could be multiple consciousness. Of course, one will not be aware of the other and possibly

0:05.5

not even able to infer the agency, even if it was. We do not become conscious after the PhD.

0:11.0

We become conscious before we can track a finger. So I suspect that consciousness allows

0:15.2

the self-organization of information processing systems in nature.

0:20.7

Yoshabakh and Carl Fristin, today's Theolocation guests, are known for their work in artificial intelligence, neuroscience, and philosophical inquiry.

0:28.6

Bach, an AI researcher, delves into cognitive architectures and computational models of consciousness and psychology.

0:35.6

Fristin, a neuroscientist, is lauded for his

0:38.6

development of the free energy principle, a theory explaining how biological systems maintain order.

0:45.1

This framework of neural processes is rooted in thermodynamics and statistical mechanics.

0:50.2

Yoshi has been on this podcast several times, one solo, another with Ben Gorsal, another with John Verveke, another with Michael Levin, and one more with Donald Hoffman.

0:59.5

Whereas Carl Friston has also been on several times, twice solo, another between Carl Fristin and Mike Eleven, and another with Carl and Anna Lemke.

1:07.9

That one's coming up shortly.

1:09.5

The first hour of today's talk is broadly on

1:11.7

agreements so that we can establish some terms. The second hour roughly is on points of divergence,

1:17.4

and the third is on more dark philosophical implications, as well as how to avoid existential

1:23.1

turmoil precipitated by earnestly contending with these heavy ideas. For those of you who don't know, my name is Kurt Jymungle, and there's this podcast here

1:31.5

called Theories of Everything, where we investigate theories of everything from a physics

1:35.6

perspective, primarily as my backgrounds in math and physics.

1:39.0

But as well as I'm interested in the larger questions on reality, such as what is consciousness,

1:43.7

what constitutes it, what gives rise is consciousness, what constitutes it, what

1:45.0

gives rise to consciousness, what counts as an explanation. You could think of this channel as

1:49.2

exploring those questions you, well, at least I sit and ponder at nighttime and daytime incessantly.

...

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