Hi, Bill Crystal here. Welcome back to conversations. I'm very pleased to be joined again for the third time by Jonathan Carl, author of the new book,

Retribution, Donald Trump and the campaign that changed America.

And the book actually goes into the administration first couple, two, three months of the administration.

So it gives us license to talk.

Not just about the campaign, but about the administration.

John wrote two excellent earlier books on Trump,

after which we had conversations.

The first, on the Trump first term, really, in January 6th,

front row at the Trump show, I think that was called, right?

And then the second in late 2023 on, what would you say,

the early part of, early and middle part of Trump's comeback, I guess. Yeah, Trump's exile. That was really Trump's exile, yes. Yeah. But you say, the early part of, early and middle part of Trump's comeback, I guess.

Yeah, Trump's exile. That was really Trump's exile, yes.

Yeah. But you, that conversation and the book stand up well because you really were prescient

in seeing that he could come back, that it was more likely that he would come back than a lot

of people thought and that what the character in that comeback would be. And so, so thanks for joining, thanks for joining me and us again here in October of 2025,

nine months into the Trump presidency.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

I hate to say it.

It's actually, this is book four on Trump.

Oh, I forgot.

Front row at the Trump show, Betrayal, which was all about 2020 and January 6th. I conflated that with the first one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what that was. It was after that we did the first conversation. That's four. So at this rate, I mean, he's been president for five years, four books. That's at least two or three more for the Trump for this term. And then there'll be the third term. So that's another three or four books. Yeah. That's... Yeah. This one almost killed me, so I don't know. Is that right? You think if you'll do a historical novel or something. Yeah, yeah. You know, something on some important campaign for the 1870s or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So you have written, well, okay, I was going to say you've written two books on the job.

You've written three books on Trump,

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