Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.

I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation with a guest

who will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself, others,

and the world we live in.

Hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility.

Thanks for listening and on the podcast.

Jonah is an author, speaker, storyteller, designer, and entrepreneur.

He's the author of Winning the Story Wars, why those who tell and

live the best stories will rule the future. And most recently, unsafe thinking

how to be nimble and bold when you need it most.

Thanks for chatting with me today, Jonah.

Yeah, thanks, Scott.

It's great to be here.

Cool, we got some mutual interest, don't we?

Yeah, definitely.

Your last book, Wired to Create, was a big inspiration for me in writing this book. So. Oh, well, I didn't know that. Yeah, that's great. I'm honored to hear that. Yeah, it's a great book that you wrote and, you know, a lot of, like I said, a lot of mutual topics that we're interested in so the thing

with that is it's always difficult to be like where do I start you know when you have like so many topics that are interesting

but I'll start with it's in the title of your book

safe thinking right so what is the safe thinking cycle so the safe thinking cycle is this idea

that we get into this place with a changing world in which we get a certain amount of threat awareness no matter what we do.

If we're being unsuccessful in our work, we start to get nervous that there's threats to our well-being.

But even if we reach high levels of

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