This is Intelligence Matters with former acting director of the CIA, Michael Morel,

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Neutrals like Finland and Sweden are thinking about, and I think leaning now toward

NATO membership, what's happened here in Ukraine is that Putin has redefined the idea of threat.

So if you're in Finland now, the idea of just coordinating with NATO doesn't seem enough.

In a way Putin's gotten exactly the opposite of what he aspired to achieve here.

He's going to have the end of the day very probably more countries hugging his border.

It's very hard looking back historically to see a calculation as long-headed as this.

You'd have to go back to Hitler having the foolishness to invade Russia in World War II to find

something that was his own-headed calculation as what he's done in Ukraine.

John McLaughlin is the former deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

He is also a Russia expert and he joins us today to talk about the longer-term consequences

of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. We'll be right back with that discussion after a word from our

sponsor. I'm Michael Moral and this is Intelligence Matters.

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