You're listening to The Great Simplification with Nate Higgins.

That's me.

On this show, we try to explore and simplify what's happening with energy, the economy,

the environment, and our society.

Together with scientists, experts, and leaders, this show is about understanding the bird's-eye view of how everything fits together, where we go from here and what we can do about it as a society and as individuals.

One reason I settled on the great simplification as a moniker is that the long trajectory

of human societies that solve problems by adding more energy will reverse this century.

More energy allows for more complexity.

Less energy implies a simplification of processes, lifestyles, and expectations.

With me today is renowned archaeologist Joseph Tainter, who is perhaps best known for his book

The Collapse of Complex Societies, where he outlines the history of human social organization

and access to energy surplus.

Joe and I discuss the difference between complicated and complex, the core findings of his

lifelong research into this topic, and possible pathways ahead.

The unspoken question is, how might human cultures solve or mitigate problems with less surplus energy?

I hope you enjoy and learn from this another foundational discussion with Professor Joseph

Tainter. Hello, Joe, good to see you.

Well, good to see you.

The last time I saw you on the screen was in the Jeff Bridges movie that Susan Cuchera made and you and I were both in.

The last time that I saw you in person, I don't know if you'll remember this.

It was 2006, an energy and environmental conference I organized with Max Christian in Washington, D.C.,

and you were the evening speaker along with Governor SchweC., and you were the evening speaker along with

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