Hi, and welcome to Jesus Over Everything, a five-day-a-week variety show that mixes encouragement, the Bible, practical how-toes, and fantastic guests for the listener on the go.

I'm Lisa Whittle, and I welcome you to just five minutes with me, which I trust and pray will be five minutes well spent.

It's Friday, friends, and I'm happy as always about that.

I talk about leadership a lot on here, and in general, and a lot of you have asked me at times who I listen to in podcasts or read or look up to as leaders.

I first want to say that there have been and remained some non-public leaders in my life that I look up to, many of whom I've written and talked about on here.

But I want to highlight today some of the

public figures I consider leaders that when they talk, I listen. I pay attention to their

wisdom and I'm listening to what they have to say and what they have to write. So here we go.

I've talked about my mother being a leader in my life, my pastor of Jay Stewart, another pastor of mine, Derek Hawkins, who's coming on the show next month and others as well.

But I want to tell you who my five leaders I'm listening to are right now, probably the very most.

Number one, Scott Salz. Scott is someone, I don't know personally,

we've never met, but I'm listening to what he has to say. He feels to me humble, steady,

with a more quiet strength. And these are the things I look to in a leader, at least a pastor

leader from afar. He doesn't have the flash of some of the rock star pastors of today.

And while there's nothing wrong with big personalities in the pulpit whatsoever, you have to be who God made you to be.

I like Scott's more subdued way, at least what I've observed, at least from afar.

I'm going to admit to you right now that though he is a pastor, I have never personally heard him preach.

I need to go do that. But his writing is solid. He has important things to say, even on crazy

Twitter. So he is someone I consider a leader I am watching and listening to right now.

Number two, Beth Moore. Now look, if you've been around church for a while, you have heard

of Beth Moore. And Beth has, in my opinion, come more into herself in the past few years. Some might

say she's changed or gotten bolder, and maybe that's true. I have to tell you, I was not one who did

...