From KCRW Santa Monica and KCRW.com, it's The Treatment.

Welcome to the treatment. It's good to have friends, the course of the years doing this show,

and it's good to have an old friend sitting right across from me,

our old friend, Joe Berlinger, who was last year with crude.

Yes.

We stir up a little bit of trouble with that.

He's been stirring up trouble for the last 25 years.

Before we started, I was saying that in terms of the true crime documentary, he's one of the pioneers of that, going way back to Brothers Keepers. New film, which looks at another bigger and different kind of crime, a crime on so many levels, is a new film intent to

destroy. First of all, Joe, thanks to coming back. Elvis, always great to see you. I can't

believe it's been since crude that I haven't chatted with you officially. I've seen you around.

Yeah, but it's interesting because you tended to take on these big topics,

but you, I don't think he was being, strictly speaking, a documentarian, because for me,

they're always pieces of storytelling for you, aren't that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know,

interestingly, with Brothers Keeper, you know, we came in as storytellers with a, with a, you know, no social

justice component.

It wasn't until Paradise Lost when we saw Damien Eccles being chained up and led to death row.

That, that kind of activism gene awakened in me.

So, you know, I've come in, I came into filmmaking, you know, along with Bruceanovsky, who sadly passed away a couple years ago. But when we made Brothers Keeper,

it was purely an aesthetic decision to try to push the documentary form in our own way. So

storytelling to me has always been paramount. You know, you can make a thesis film full of all

sorts of facts and figures about any kind of subject you want to advocate

for, but if you don't reach people emotionally, it's not going to be as effective as, you know,

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