This is the Jocco Underground Podcast.

We're on number 62.

This is number 62.

I'm sitting here with Echo Charles.

I was talking to a guy at camp.

Pretty much, been to every camp that I think I've been to.

You did two camp, this is by the way.

Origin, Emerging Camp.

And good guy, we've always hung out

and I've kind of watched his growth and journey

for lack of a better word over the past few years.

Anyways, this time shows up to camp.

We're talking and he's going through a really hard time.

Like a surprisingly, you know when you just,

you see someone on a trajectory

and you're watching their trajectory

and like, oh, this is a good trajectory.

You're, and then all of a sudden

they're just off that trajectory.

Like it's like this space shuttle Columbia.

Like you think everything's going good

and it's just, it just goes sideways.

...