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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Jill Lepore on what I get wrong

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, News Commentary, Philosophy, Society & Culture

4.511.1K Ratings

🗓️ 6 February 2020

⏱️ 81 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Jill Lepore is a Harvard historian, a New Yorker contributor, the author of These Truths, and one of my favorite past guests on this show. But in this episode, the tables are turned: I’m in the hot seat, and Lepore has some questions. Hard ones. This is, easily, the toughest interview on my book so far. Lepore isn’t quibbling over my solutions or pointing out a contrary study — what she challenges are the premises, epistemology, and meta-structure that form the foundation of my book, and much of my work. Her question, in short, is: What if social science itself is too crude to be a useful way of understanding the political world? But that’s what makes this conversation great. We discuss whether all political science research on polarization might be completely wrong, why (and whether) my book is devoid of individual or institutional “villains,” and whether I am morally obliged to delete my Twitter account, in addition to the missing party in American politics, why I mistrust historical narratives, media polarization, and much more. This is, on one level, a conversation about Why We’re Polarized. But on a deeper level, it’s about different modes of knowledge and whether we can trust them. New to the show? Want to listen to Ezra's favorite episodes? Check out The Ezra Klein Show beginner's guide. My book is available at www.EzraKlein.com. The “Why We’re Polarized” tour continues, with events in Portland, Seattle, Austin, Nashville, Chicago, and Greenville. Go to WhyWerePolarized.com for the full schedule! Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.com Credits: Producer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

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1:02.0

I'm your host, but I'm a mean host.

1:04.0

No, I would actually, the reason I want to do this with you is I would like to know what you think is wrong about the book.

1:08.0

The audience has heard me talk about how great it is and my amazing, like tell me what's wrong with that.

1:13.0

I don't know what's wrong with that. It knows your shit. I mean, you know my stick. Yeah.

1:16.0

You're take on these questions and it's a really important take, but it's my job.

1:19.0

No, I want to hear what's wrong.

1:33.0

Welcome to the Ezra Klein show. I'm your guest host, Jill Lapor. Ezra, thanks for being with us today.

1:38.0

I am so thrilled to be on the show. I've always wanted to be a guest on this show.

1:42.0

I'm, I'm, we're thrilled to have you. We've been around so long. I mean, you know, you're a hard, hard dad.

1:47.0

Yeah. Yeah. So congratulations on the book. Thank you so much.

1:50.0

Which I see everywhere. So, you know, I think it's the kind of book we could say, well, it was perfectly timed and yet the timing of this has you could really look anytime since 2004.

2:03.0

Say, I think we could pick a date where this would have, the book would have appeared in an opportune moment, although the month of the impeachment is of course a very particular one.

...

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