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I am Jonathan Cape Heart and welcome to Cape Up.

As the Trump administration grapples with a crisis of its own making,

I sat down with a man who knows exactly what they're grappling with and took a different course of action.

Jay Johnson, Secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama.

What happened when he faced separating children from their parents.

It was just simply not something we could do.

You can hear him get into this and more,

including the NFL kneeling controversy, right now.

Secretary Johnson, thank you very much for being on the podcast. Jonathan, thanks for having me.

So you wrote an op-ed for the Washington Post where you talk about how you and your wife went to

Macallin, Texas. You went to this detention facility. This was back in 2014, I believe, when we were having the

crisis of the children from Central America coming over the border. Various

Trump administration officials have basically laid the blame of what's happening today

at the feet of the Obama administration, really at your feet.

They said, y'all did it, so we're just doing what you did can you

please walk us through the differences between what's happening now and

...