Welcome to the Bullwark podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. It is April 6, 2023. And just in case

you think we've been to Brighton Sherry lately, we're going to turn the dial a little bit.

Jeff Charlotte is a journalist author and a Dartmouth professor whose latest book is The

Undertale, Seens from a Slow Civil War. Jeff, thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

Thanks for having me, Charlie. You know, it's interesting that the advanced copy of your book

came the day that I was actually, for somebody that I was thinking about whether or not we've

already entered into a cold civil war or a slow civil war. That's an interesting phrase that you

use here. You've spent a lot of time on the road interviewing people and you gave an interview

last year and you said you felt like you were watching the United States fray and unravel as you

travel the country over the past decade. So let's talk about this fraying and unraveling of

America. A lot of us are trying to figure out how to put this in the context of other fractures

this country has gone through. So give me a sense of this fraying and unraveling of America

that you see when you talk to people. I've been reporting on right wing movements for more

than 20 years from establishment to far right to what I think now with caution we can fairly

call fascists. And there are those who sort of say yes but this has always been there and I

think I would have held that position once too. I would have said look this has always been a part

of the fabric of American life. Something has been changing and I think Trump opened a door

and I think January 6th 2021 tore it off the hinges. I've been sort of watching this transformation

but it was after that that I saw a group of academic historians debating how close United States

might be the civil war. I'm married to an academic historian. I know how rightly cautious they are

that they know that history moves slowly except when it doesn't. And for the first time these cautious

historians were saying civil war is on the table. It's not in the habitability it's not even

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