This program is brought to you by SoundsTrue.com. For those seeking genuine transformation, soundstrue.com is your trusted partner on the spiritual journey, offering diverse, in-depth, and life-changing wisdom. Many voices, one journey. SoundsTrue.com.

You're listening to Insights at the Edge. Today I speak with Jim Finley.

Jim is a clinical psychologist in Santa Monica, California, and a Merton scholar. Jim left home at the age of 18 and actually lived as a monk at the Abbey of Gestemone with Thomas Merton for six years.

He's the author of Christian meditation, experiencing the presence of God and the contemplative heart,

as well as several Sounds True audio learning programs, including a program on Christian meditation,

and a program with Carolyn Mace on transforming trauma, a seven-step process for spiritual healing.

I spoke with Jim about the experience of the dark night of the soul, which is a topic

that he leads retreats on. We also spoke about his spiritual approach to healing trauma.

Jim, there's a topic that I've heard you teach on, that I've never heard you speak on,

that I'd love to talk with you about, which is the dark night of the soul, and how

somebody knows when they're going through a dark night, some kind of initiation,

and the difference between that and when they're just feeling down and depressed?

How do you know the difference?

Yes.

Is there a difference?

Yeah, there is a difference.

I want to do this.

First of all, the term the Dark Night of the Soul most

often refers back to the term that was, that term, that term was used by St. John of the Cross,

the 16th century Spanish mystic St. John of the Cross. And for St. John of the Cross,

the Dark Night of the Soul, is kind of this central operating kind of process through which a person comes to mystical awakening.

So I'd like to back up and create the context in what St. John of the Cross uses the word.

...