From KCRW in Santa Monica, this is The Treatment.

Welcome to the treatment, which you can also hear at KCRW.com.

My guest, Renaissance man James Andrew Miller, has written about several institutions

that are basically men's clubs in transition. His book on the Senate running in place,

dealt with his time there. He also did the amazing bestseller live from New York about

being in the halls of Studio 8-H for Saturday Night Live. His newest book, also written with

Tom Shales is, those guys have

all the fun to look at ESPN. Jim, first of all, thanks so much for being here. Thanks for

having me. But that's the thing that does fascinate me about these books you've done. They are

about these men's clubs. They start as being basically the province of guys who are incredibly

competitive in places that you wouldn't expect competition.

And then we started to see these shifts, certainly more so, in live from New York.

And those guys have all the fun than any of the other books.

That's amazing to me, though.

It's interesting you say that.

I hadn't really thought about that, although there were two female senators when I was working in the Senate and the time period that the book covers.

And I definitely think that at that time, the Senate still was very much a men's club.

John Belushi on Senate.

He used to say he wouldn't do sketches that were written by women.

So there was certainly difficulties for women in that, in that environment, although it's

gotten better through the years. And of course, with ESPN, over the 32-year history of ESPN,

there have been some challenging times, some brutal times, and then some better times for women.

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