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slash voxpod this is recode media with peter kofka that is me and i'm smiling you can

hear i'm smiling because i'm talking one of my favorite guests. She's back again this year, Jessica Lesson, the CEO and founder of the information. Oh, I say my favorite tech and business publication. Am I allowed to say that? Oh, you can, and we'd be delighted. Thank you, Peter. All right. If I get in trouble, pretend you didn't hear it. Welcome, Jessica. Thanks. I want to, you just took a trip to China with the Secretary of Commerce, Gina Romando. I want to talk to you about that trip. But I wanted to use that trip as a reason to talk to you about China and the U.S. and tech because it's something that is in the background and sometimes the

foreground of all kinds of conversations about tech. And I feel extraordinarily ignorant about

what's going on, even though I've spent time trying to report it out with the help of your

employee, Wayne Ma, who did a great episode of Land of the Giants about Apple and China and their

co-dependence a couple years ago

who brought in Wayne to do that.

And I wanted you to just sort of tell us where things stand

because it seems on the one hand

like there is increased tension

and ratcheting up pressure between the U.S. and China.

On the other hand, every time I look around,

I see more evidence that U.S.

commerce in general and tech in particular are deeply embedded in China and really

sort of inextricable. And I find those two ideas hard to hold in my head at the same time,

...