You have. Yeah, so narrative non-fiction takes a lot of time because we have to get inside the

minds and the hearts and experiences of people who may not even want to talk about or think about

what they've been through whatever it might be and then once you've done that you've

emerged with the story that has the suspense and the fears the all of the emotions that go along with a decision or whatever

circumstance might be along with the plot line of their lives.

And then by the time you come out of that with the context of the world that they were living in,

you come out with this full story, but it's the closest that you will ever get to being another person,

because these are real people. and the people have decided to make this great

gift to humanity. I think anyone who participates in an ad of non-fiction project is making

a gift to them, the humanity by allowing other people to see and to feel and to hear and to be with them in those really difficult moments as they're going through that and it's supposed to get to being an actual other person.

Isabel Wilkerson is one of the great writers of her generation.

With her first book, The Warmth of Other Sons about the Great Migration and her new book

Her second book Cast about global systemic racism the Pulitzer Prize winner explains

What it is to be black with a depth and a perception and a beauty of writing that is rarely seen.

These two books are towering achievements and her writing style is

gorgeous. I love her work and I love talking to her. It's an honor to dig into

what went into making these two amazing books.

You'll get half of this conversation for free. For the whole thing, go to Patreon.com slash Torrey Show and subscribe for just... Go to a patreon

show and subscribe for just five dollars a month.

And trust me, it's worth it because you get Isabel Wilkerson.

And trust me, it's worth it because you get me and Isabel Wilkerson,

Malcolm Gladwell, and so many other amazing people.

...