This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Robert Kagan used to describe Donald Trump as anti-liberal.

Then he opted to authoritarian. And now Kagan says that Trump is getting close to becoming a dictator.

Kagan writes, President Trump is managed in just one year to destroy the American order that was

and has weakened America's

ability to protect its interests in the world that will be. Americans thought defending the

liberal world order was too expensive, wait until they start paying for what comes next, unquote.

We're going to talk about that and Trump's domestic violations of norms, laws, and the

Constitution, including the ICE immigration crackdowns in cities like Minneapolis.

Kagan says some of the Trump administration policies are rooted in the history of Christian

white supremacy.

Robert Kagan is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution,

a contributing writer at the Atlantic,

a former longtime Washington Post columnist, a former Republican,

and the author of many books.

The paperback edition of his latest book is titled Rebellion,

Donald Trump and the Anti-Liberal Tradition in America.

We recorded our interview yesterday.

Robert Kagan, welcome to fresh air.

Thank you.

So you've recently said we're heading into a dictatorship if we're not already in one.

And you've described Trump over the years as anti-liberal and then authoritarian and not to moving

in the direction of dictator or already maybe one. So what promoted him to would be dictator or maybe

...