Well, joining me now is a journalist and historian Caleb Gale.

Caleb specializes, if you will, he's written for all sorts of major news organizations.

But in many ways, he specializes in what I would call

hidden history, undiscovered history, or underwritten, I think discovered's the wrong word there,

underwritten history. And as you know, we love that here at the Toddcast. The most recent book

he's got is called Black Moses,

a saga of ambition and the fight for a black state. Caleb is from Oklahoma,

spends a lot of time talking about essentially buried history, particularly among

African Americans in the state of Oklahoma.

And this book is about how what is now Oklahoma, what this, what the character in this

book, Black Moses wanted to create, essentially a black state.

And so Caleb, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well,

Chuck. Look, I think this is this is why, you know, I always call myself a history junkie,

not a political junkie. I refer to myself more as a political anthropologist these days than

a political analyst because I do think it's sort of, when you look at it a political anthropologist these days than a political analyst because I do think

it's sort of when you look at it like an anthropologist, you can sometimes understand

different tribes, right? So we're going to call it different political tribes, ideological tribes.

But this is a fascinating story. And look, I'd love to know more about it.

But let me start with what got you into essentially becoming a history writer,

a history biographer of sorts.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think a lot of journalists probably should learn a lot from anthropologists

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