Richard Sanders, welcome to Navaralife.

Thank you. Very happy to have you on.

Lovely to be here.

You are somebody with a finger in many editorial pies over the years.

One of them being this dispatches episode you made in 2019 with Channel 4, Kathy Newman.

You are familiar with the issues, the personalities.

You even met Virginia Jafray.

What was she like?

Who was she?

Right.

So first of all, I never met Virginia.

Virginia lived in Australia.

Okay.

What happened was I made the film with Kathy Newman, which went out before the infamous Prince Andrew interview in 2019. In the wake of that, I established contact with Virginia, and I had a series of very long conversations with Virginia. So it was a telephone relationship we had. She was in Australia with a very poor sense of time zones. She'd ring up at sort of two in the morning for a chat, and you'd say, oh, yeah, you know. She was great. She was very funny. She was very smart. She's very resilient. And she was very bouncy at

that time. I mean, you know, I think at that time she felt quite exhilarated. Everything was

going, was finally coming out into the open. And she was absolutely fascinating. She, you know,

she was quite an intelligent, insightful person. And she was absolutely fascinating. She, you know, she was quite an intelligent,

insightful person, and she was a really fascinating sort of entry point onto that, that world

of Jeffrey Epstein. Although I subsequently realized, of course, she, you know, she was one of the

people who didn't matter. She was one of the little people around. And I've been to a degree

surprised by the degree to which Epstein clearly is at the heart of

this web of relationships and everything. I'd kind of had a sense of someone who inflated his own

...