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The Michael Shermer Show

Inside the CIA’s Mind Control Experiments

The Michael Shermer Show

Michael Shermer

Dialogue, Science, Reason, Michaelshermer, Natural Sciences, Skeptic

4.4921 Ratings

🗓️ 20 May 2025

⏱️ 93 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

This is the inside story of the CIA’s secret mind control project, MKULTRA, using never-before-seen testimony from the perpetrators themselves.

Sidney Gottlieb was the CIA’s most cunning chemist. As head of the infamous MKULTRA project, he oversaw an assortment of dangerous―even deadly―experiments. Among them: dosing unwitting strangers with mind-bending drugs, torturing mental patients through sensory deprivation, and steering the movements of animals via electrodes implanted into their brains. His goal was to develop methods of mind control that could turn someone into a real-life “Manchurian candidate.”

In conjunction with MKULTRA, Gottlieb also plotted the assassination of foreign leaders and created spy gear for undercover agents. The details of his career, however, have long been shrouded in mystery. Upon retiring from the CIA in 1973, he tossed his files into an incinerator. As a result, much of what happened under MKULTRA was thought to be lost―until now.

Historian John Lisle has uncovered dozens of depositions containing new information about MKULTRA, straight from the mouths of its perpetrators. For the first time, Gottlieb and his underlings divulge what they did, why they did it, how they got away with it, and much more. Additionally, Lisle highlights the dramatic story of MKULTRA’s victims, from their terrible treatment to their dogged pursuit of justice.

The consequences of MKULTRA still reverberate throughout American society.

John Lisle is a historian of science and the American intelligence community. He was on the show for his previous book, The Dirty Tricks Department, about Stanley Lovell, the OSS precursor to the CIA, and the Masterminds of World War II Secret Warfare. In Vol. 25, No. 2 of Skeptic he wrote about MKULTRA, the CIA program in search of mind control technology. His new book is Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKULTRA.

Transcript

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0:00.0

You're listening to The Michael Shermer Show.

0:15.0

Hey, everybody, it's Michael Shermer.

0:16.7

It's time for another episode of The Michael Shermer Show.

0:19.3

Man, have I got a special one for you today?

0:21.6

Spies!

0:22.2

This is like the James Bond kind of secret project.

0:26.7

Mind control.

0:27.9

Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA and the tragedy of M.K. Ultra.

0:32.0

Here it is.

0:32.8

We've been hearing all about this with the recent Trump release of the final JFK files. There was nothing in there about

0:40.0

the CIA assassining the president, but there was a lot of interesting stuff about what the CIA

0:43.8

was doing in foreign countries. My guest is John Lyle. He's a historian of science and the American

0:51.7

intelligence community. Here in a PhD in history from the University of Texas and has taught courses on U.S.

0:58.0

history, cyberspace, and information warfare at the University of Texas, Louisiana Tech

1:03.8

University, and Austin Community College.

1:06.4

His writing has appeared in Scientific American, Smithsonian Magazine, Skeptic, Hey, that's mine,

1:12.1

the Journal of Intelligence History, Journal of Intelligence History, and Physics and Perspective.

1:17.6

He was on the show for his previous book, The Dirty Tricks Department, about Stanley Lovell,

1:22.3

the OSS precursor to the CIA, and the masterminds of World War II secret warfare.

1:28.4

In volume 25 number two of skeptic, he wrote about M.K. Ultra, the CIA program in search of mind

1:34.0

control technology. And now he has a new book out here. It is again, Project Mind Control,

1:38.5

which is something of a sequel, I guess, huh, John?

...

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