Inside COP: Storms in Belém - Lula’s arrival, the carbon tariff debate, and the COP31 decision
Outrage + Optimism: The Climate Podcast
Persephonica
4.7 • 1.1K Ratings
🗓️ 20 November 2025
⏱️ 38 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
We’re approaching crunch time in Belém, and a long-running COP30 saga may finally have found its landing spot. After days of rumour, diplomacy and thunderous rainforest downpours, the question of who will host COP31 looks close to being resolved - and it all plays out over the course of our day’s recording.
Paul Dickinson and Fiona McRaith trace the twists of the Australia-Turkey negotiations in real time, with insight from former UN diplomat Dean Bialek. Plus, we hear from political journalist Thais Bilenky on the domestic pressures shaping Lula’s approach, as the Brazilian president personally steps in to break the deadlock.
Across the day, the team also dives into one of the summit’s biggest sticking points: CBAM, the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism. In a wide-ranging conversation, the EU’s Teresa Ribera lays out why Brussels sees CBAM as essential for true decarbonisation - but why it’s sparking concern among countries who fear they’ll be penalised while still industrialising.
Then it’s over to the Action Agenda, with Dan Ioschpe and Jennie Dodson giving a ground-level view of how coalitions, companies and cities are reshaping the COP’s centre of gravity - from regenerative landscapes in Brazil to global momentum across grids, food systems and industry.
Finally, as we’re packing up the mics, news of COP31 appears to land. What does this unusual arrangement mean? What happens to the long-promised Pacific Island leadership? And what will it take for next year’s COP to deliver on the ambition so many hoped this decision would unlock?
Learn more:
📣 Read the latest reports about the COP31 host and Presidency
⚙️ Dive into the nuts and bolts of the EU’s CBAM
🧩 Explore the 6 pillars and 30 objectives of the COP30 Action Agenda
🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements
🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:
Instagram @outrageoptimism
LinkedIn @outrageoptimism
Or via this form.
Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks
Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan
Edited by: Miles Martignoni
Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford
With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.
This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hello everyone, it's Fiona and I am walking out of the blue zone right now after spending the day |
| 0:07.0 | trying to trace a story that has probably now been formally announced, but as of recording this, it has not yet. |
| 0:14.0 | And that is who is hosting and who is the presidency of COP 31 next year. |
| 0:19.0 | We think we know the answer as I'm walking out of the halls, but we've |
| 0:22.4 | followed the story today, getting sources that we don't bring on the pod and one really |
| 0:27.4 | knowledgeable source that we do. And you'll come along that journey with us in this episode. |
| 0:31.3 | We hope you enjoy it. |
| 0:36.6 | Hello and welcome to Inside Cop from Outrage and Optimism. |
| 0:39.6 | I'm Paul Dickinson. |
| 0:40.6 | And I'm Fiona McGree. |
| 0:41.6 | Today, the latest drama from the Blue Zone, a spotlight on the action agenda and deep dive |
| 0:47.1 | into the contentious question of CBAM, the carbon border adjustment mechanism. |
| 0:51.7 | Thanks for being here. |
| 1:04.4 | So big day of drama here at COP 30 and the skies also joined in the fun. |
| 1:10.5 | Thunderstorms, we are in the rainforest, we're in Bilem, and roof leaks in the blue zone, |
| 1:12.5 | specifically right above where I was literally sitting just listening to that I got to tell you I was in the action agenda and we'll talk |
| 1:20.7 | about it later but there were three countries France Sweden Australia literally drowned out |
| 1:25.4 | no one could hear anyone speaking because the volume of the rain was so intense. |
| 1:30.5 | It's science fiction rain amazing. |
| 1:32.4 | Never experienced it before. |
| 1:33.8 | So that being said, the afternoon was pretty loud, pretty thundery, and in a delightful way, |
| 1:39.4 | reminding us where we are in the world, the Amazon rainforest, one of the global tipping points, |
... |
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